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#190844 - 10/23/13 03:51 PM 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore *****
alain Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 15
Loc: Laval,Quebec,Canada
This is really a [*****] service from you guys. Your developper team should be able to see that coming and fix it!!!

I upgraded and PAID a good amount only 2 YEARS ago!!! For that version and you were not able to see that coming and help your customer with that.

You see, i am currently using about 50 software on my machine, some costed me a lot, some a couple of bucks. Some were installed about 8 years ago and ALL my software are working great after that upgrade except? Guess which one?

Vectorworks!!!

Hey guys! When your customer pay around 600$ for a "basic" upgrade, you could make a little effort to make your program work for at least a couple of years!

I am really really angry about that situation and i hate to feel like i've been take in hostage from a company to upgrade a software and pay more!

I've been using Vectorworks since the "minicad" version!!! I had always talked good to my partners about it, but now i feel that you really missed that one. And i am considering seriously other options!

Ciao

Alain Boisclair


Edited by alain (10/23/13 03:52 PM)
_________________________
iMac Core i7
Vectorwork Fondamental/Architect/Renderworks 2015
User of VW since Minicad

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#190848 - 10/23/13 04:18 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
It is only viable to support the current and previous versions of Vectorworks, unfortunately.

Apple regularly makes massive changes between OS updates and sometimes the fix is as simple as waiting until the next service pack. For example, Vectorworks 2013 will most likely be patched to be compatible with OS X Mavericks, while Vectorworks 2014 was repeatedly tested with the developer builds of 10.9 as they came out and fixed along the way, since it was also still in beta at the time and changes were possible.

We do not build end-of-life into our software directly, its all about the OS. Windows XP for example, can run every version of Vectorworks released since at least MiniCAD 6 all the way up to the current Vectorworks 2014.

I do understand it is frustrating and you may feel as if you've been intentionally trapped, but we do not hide compatibility issues and entrapment was never our motive. I make sure any OS compatibility problems are posted to the knowledge base as soon as we are aware of them.

This article was updated less than 3 hours after OS X 10.9 Mavericks was released:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/1...List+2013-10-22

Even if it were possible to keep the older versions up to date, we certainly wouldn't be able to patch 10+ versions of a massively complex software package within a day of a new OS being released.

I truly sympathize with you, but it simply isn't feasible to keep so many versions of such a complex program compatible with OSes that change so dramatically so often.
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
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I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190854 - 10/23/13 04:46 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
atari2600 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 158
Loc: Maryland
So what is a small business owner to do?

Ditch their computer's operating system, or ditch the one piece of software who's creator decides it's not "viable" to support their two year old software on a new OS release?

Ever since NM went to this single year software version release, I've seen more and more people complain about bugs and compatibility issues. By the time they are resolved, "POW" a new version comes out, and the whole thing starts again.

As an employee in a large residential remodeling company, we don't even have the infrastructure to handle annual upgrades, even though we pay for them through our annual subscription. We simply "choose" to upgrade every two years. Back when NM would spend several years updating and refining the current release, support for evolving operating systems was obligatory.

I think you owe it to the single license owners (and Mac users) that you reconsider this position.

There will be a tipping point where more people will choose another competing software, not because VW is bad, but because they cant depend on the customer/technical support being there in a year or two.

my 2 cents...

Matt

(p.s. Just because other software companies are doing this annual upgrade thing does it mean that it is a good idea for the user.)
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Matt Dirksen
Case Design Remodeling, Inc.
2.53 Xeon + Win7 + VW 2013

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#190855 - 10/23/13 04:49 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
CipesDesign Offline


Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 11/07/00
Posts: 4760
Loc: Ashland, Or USA
Matt, in your Signature you show a Win 7 machine (?). Also, I think its pretty unreasonable for you to think that VW 2011 (now 4 years old) should (or could) be made to work with OS X Mavericks...

Suggestion: Stick with Mt Lion until such a time as you can afford to buy a new copy of VW's. It works fine, so what's the issue?
_________________________
Peter Cipes
Designer
VW's Trainer
Ashland, Oregon, USA
Mac Pro 3.5 GHz 6 Core w/ 16 GB RAM
Mac OS 10.9.5
VectorWorks Designer [Most Recent Release]
User Since Mini-Cad 4

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#190857 - 10/23/13 04:53 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: atari2600]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
Originally Posted By: atari2600
So what is a small business owner to do?

Ditch their computer's operating system, or ditch the one piece of software who's creator decides it's not "viable" to support their two year old software on a new OS release?


That would have to be a personal decision, whether to keep everything up to date or keep the OS/Software combo at the versions that work with each other. Unless the user had a major reason to switch to the latest OS.

If their reasoning is that they always want the latest and greatest software, then they would most likely already be on Service Select, get our new versions as soon as they release and then the compatibility problems would not be an issue.

As for the yearly release cycle, this is something that is happening across the entire industry. Whether we like it or not, all OSes and major software packages are moving to similar models and the pace at which hardware and software is being updated/replaced is increasing dramatically, but that is completely separate from any decisions we make or actions we take.


Edited by JimW (10/23/13 05:01 PM)
Edit Reason: Typo
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Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
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I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190859 - 10/23/13 05:28 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: CipesDesign]
atari2600 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 158
Loc: Maryland
Originally Posted By: CipesDesign
Also, I think its pretty unreasonable for you to think that VW 2011 (now 4 years old) should (or could) be made to work with OS X Mavericks...


I certainly wouldn't advocate anyone upgrading their OS on it's first day of release, but if VW is the only software not working, what gives?

Fwiw: Just looking in my old service pack release folder. I downloaded the final service pack release of VW2011 on 7/18/2011.

In my mind, 27 months of using a "refined" piece of software is not a long time. Our warranty to our clients is longer that that.

Again, just because "THE INDUSTRY" is moving to an annual release cycle doesn't mean it's ultimately a good thing for a user. If I were to buy a car, and it took half a year for it to finally work as advertised, I'm sure I would have traded it in before then. Fortunately, cars, "in general", work as advertised, so producing them annually is somewhat a given. Sadly, people so used to new versions of "half baked" software and OS upgrades, that it ultimately leaves the customer with the short end of the stick.

(Last month was the first month all our users were running VW2013, upgrading from VW2011). Some of their ongoing projects are still running on VW2011. It is NOT WORTH converting the files up to 2013, with all the bugs we have encountered.

Again, this is what our office has chosen to afford to do.

Matt
_________________________
Matt Dirksen
Case Design Remodeling, Inc.
2.53 Xeon + Win7 + VW 2013

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#190860 - 10/23/13 05:31 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Jonathan Pickup Offline


Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 3028
Loc: Napier, New Zealand
I have inDesign 5.5, which I have to run on Lion because it is not supported on mountain lion. It is a similar problem to your issue, but I have decided to keep that computer on lion so that I can continue to run it.

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#190864 - 10/23/13 05:50 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: atari2600]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
Originally Posted By: atari2600
Again, just because "THE INDUSTRY" is moving to an annual release cycle doesn't mean it's ultimately a good thing for a user.


I completely agree, unfortunately the speed at which Apple chooses to drop support for software components that we need to rely on is out of our hands.

By picking an OS we have to adhere to whatever practices it introduces. Historically with Windows it has not been a major problem, only users with versions upwards of 8 years or older had problems in Windows releases after XP, but on the Mac side it is a completely different story.

As for software only being supported for 2-3 years, this is directly due to OS updates. If there weren't major changes made by Microsoft or Apple in their OSes, then we would have no trouble supporting our software decades back.
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
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I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190869 - 10/23/13 06:54 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
HP Sauce Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 242
Loc: UK/USA
It would be nice to at least see a poll created to see how much interest there is in fixing older versions. I for one would pay a few hundred bucks to get 2009 working in 10.9, and I'm sure many others would pay for 2010/2011/2012 etc.
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VW 09 Arch & Render, CameraMatch
OSX 10.9, 27" iMac 3.4ghz i7/32gb/680
Foreign car

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#190870 - 10/23/13 06:57 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: HP Sauce]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
There is a definite interest, that isn't in question, but the cost would be comparable to what a user would have to pay in order to upgrade to the latest version anyway, so it just comes full circle.
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190871 - 10/23/13 07:23 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3910
Loc: Australia
If you have a computer that can run OS Maverick then it is non sensical to to be using an older version of Vw. I use Vw 2009 when I collaborate with an associate who refuses to upgrade and Vw 2014 for everything else. The latter is more productive and a much better experience.

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#190872 - 10/23/13 07:41 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
HP Sauce Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/28/06
Posts: 242
Loc: UK/USA
Macs from 2007 run Mavericks, so that point is sort of invalid.

Not to mention that for what our company does, 2009 was perfect, our go-to tool for speedy 2D drafting. For BIM/renders we use other software. So in our case, 2014 is not more productive nor a better experience... especially seeing that 2009 is snappier even in a VM than 2014 is natively.
_________________________
VW 09 Arch & Render, CameraMatch
OSX 10.9, 27" iMac 3.4ghz i7/32gb/680
Foreign car

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#190873 - 10/23/13 07:53 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: HP Sauce]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
Originally Posted By: HP Sauce
So in our case, 2014 is not more productive nor a better experience... especially seeing that 2009 is snappier even in a VM than 2014 is natively.


Reply back with this and we can have a closer look to troubleshoot that:
http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/627/DirectX+Diagnostics+and+System+Profiler

Vectorworks 2014 should be faster and more responsive than 2009 if everything is configured properly on adequate hardware.

(However VM performance isn't useful as a comparison, since there is such a drastic difference between VMware/Parallels/VirtualBox etc and Vectorworks doesn't support running any version on VMs anyway.)


Edited by JimW (10/23/13 07:53 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190876 - 10/23/13 09:07 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
alain Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 15
Loc: Laval,Quebec,Canada
Matt, in your Signature you show a Win 7 machine (?). Also, I think its pretty unreasonable for you to think that VW 2011 (now 4 years old) should (or could) be made to work with OS X Mavericks...

2013-2011= ?? 4 years old? One thing is for sure: We did not went to the same school....

There are lots of reason for people to upgrade the current OS. Each time Apple release a new version they also release a developper version exactly for company like you to test there software on it and make some adjustment.

I've been working with apple computer since 1997 and let me tell you one thing: In all those years of OS upgrades i can count on my fingers the software that i had problems with. And i can tell you that i rarely had to buy a new version of it because company publish a fix.

Now i believe you when you tell me that you don't want to catch customer with that. BUT THATS HOW I FEEL right now whatever you say!

Now, what i see is that i have a major FAIL with Vectorworks on my computer only two years after i bought a 2011 copy. ALL MY OTHERS SOFTWARE (adobe, maxon, etc.. ) are working great but Vectoworks NOT ANYMORE! mad

So stop excusing yourself at Nemetcheck and start working for a solution for user like me instead.
_________________________
iMac Core i7
Vectorwork Fondamental/Architect/Renderworks 2015
User of VW since Minicad

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#190877 - 10/23/13 09:09 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
alain Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 15
Loc: Laval,Quebec,Canada
And i should add that usualy you have to install the OS first to see if everything is ok.


Edited by alain (10/23/13 09:10 PM)
_________________________
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Vectorwork Fondamental/Architect/Renderworks 2015
User of VW since Minicad

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#190879 - 10/23/13 09:23 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
The fact that you have had so few problems means you are exceedingly lucky. Every time I have had to update Mac OS X I have had issues with various versions of Adobe CS and Office, often making them unusable. The transition from PowerPC to Intel for instance was a nightmare for nearly every software package I used.

The two solutions for you would either be to keep the system that works, leaving the OS that is working fine in the version that it is. Or if you must upgrade to the latest version of the OS for whatever reason, keeping your Vectorworks updated to match.


Edited by JimW (10/23/13 09:24 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190880 - 10/23/13 09:35 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
TimWood Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 2
Loc: Onehunga, Auckland, New Zealan...
as OSX 10.9 was supplied free, an upgrade to VW2014 will also be free?

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#190881 - 10/23/13 09:48 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: TimWood]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
Originally Posted By: TimWood
as OSX 10.9 was supplied free, an upgrade to VW2014 will also be free?


Unless Apple wants to foot the bill, unfortunately no. cool

They now profit primarily from hardware, so they have most likely moved to the free OS release as a stab at Microsoft, which is completely software reliant.



Edited by JimW (10/23/13 09:49 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190882 - 10/23/13 10:07 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Robert Anderson Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/10/00
Posts: 2634
Loc: Ellicott City, MD, USA
Originally Posted By: alain
So stop excusing yourself at Nemetcheck and start working for a solution for user like me instead.


Alain, this is probably not the answer you wanted to hear, but I have to agree with JimW and say the solution for you is Vectorworks Service Select. It costs quite a bit less than yearly upgrades and you're always up to date and current, as much as you want to be. Not to mention the additional content and training resources.
_________________________
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VP Integrated Practice
Nemetschek Vectorworks

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#190886 - 10/23/13 11:40 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
lcda Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 06/17/02
Posts: 45
Loc: M?xico
learn of what happened to whatsapp

you are about to broke the company

A possible acceptable solution is to realese a free version of vectorworks 2014 only with the escencial tools


Edited by lcda (10/23/13 11:46 PM)

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#190901 - 10/24/13 07:01 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: HP Sauce]
Kizza Offline
500 Club

Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 886
Loc: Sydney Australia
Originally Posted By: HP Sauce
Macs from 2007 run Mavericks, so that point is sort of invalid.


Only if it's a quad core

My 2007 dual core iMac can only run Lion. Mountain Lion and above requires a quad core processor.


Edited by Kizza (10/24/13 07:03 AM)
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#190907 - 10/24/13 11:12 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Christiaan Offline
Vectorworks Veteran

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 6127
Loc: London
Alain, as frustrating as it is (I've been there) you really should have checked compatibility with NV before upgrading your operating system. It's madness to assume 3rd party software should work on future operating systems. If you're happy to upgrade your OS then you should be doing the same with your 3rd party software.

I'd recommend VSS too. Not only does your software stay current but the support is first rate.

The other short term solution might be to virtualise OS X 10.8 in VMWare Fusion or Parallels and run v2011 inside that. But this depends on having a powerful enough computer with a good amount of RAM.
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#190927 - 10/24/13 02:05 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
alain Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 02/16/01
Posts: 15
Loc: Laval,Quebec,Canada
JIm you are right about the transition from PowerPC to Intel. That caused problem. This was a rare time that i had problem upgrading in fact. But people were advise long before to be careful and company making software were also involved.

By the way, that was a major upgrade that have nothing to do with the others that came after because the entire architecture of the microprocessor was changed. It was 8 years ago.
_________________________
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User of VW since Minicad

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#190930 - 10/24/13 02:16 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: lcda]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
Originally Posted By: lcda
A possible acceptable solution is to realese a free version of vectorworks 2014 only with the escencial tools


This would unfairly force our users that upgrade regularly to bear the financial burden of a small portion of users that are in a very specific, and completely avoidable circumstance.


Edited by JimW (10/24/13 02:17 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190933 - 10/24/13 02:43 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
gester Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 07/22/09
Posts: 419
Loc: poland / austria
people are upgrading their os because it costs peanuts to null, before they even think of applications that could not be working anymore.

i've upgraded my both mbpros from leo and snow leo to have them in unison on mountain lion, but i could easily let them rest on older os versions, especially as safari with many open tabs devours now my disk space down to null.

there's always a compromise...
rob
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mbpro 13", 2.4 core2duo, 4gb | mbpro 15", 2.3 core i7, 16gb | macos 10.10.4 | vw2015 d/rw sp4

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#190961 - 10/24/13 05:55 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kizza]
pgym Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 71
Originally Posted By: Kizza

Only if it's a quad core

My 2007 dual core iMac can only run Lion. Mountain Lion and above requires a quad core processor.


Hmm ... Mountain Lion runs fine on my 17" Late '07 MB Pro (2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo), and Mavericks is running fine on our 15" Mid '07 MB Pro (2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo).

IIRC, quad core iMacs weren't introduced until 2009. Maybe your iMac is an Early '07?

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#190965 - 10/24/13 06:03 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
This is the current list I was able to find as well:
Quote:

OS X Mavericks is compatible with all Macs that are capable of running OS X Mountain Lion.
The full list of compatible models:
iMac (Mid 2007 or newer)
MacBook (Late 2008 Aluminum, or Early 2009 or newer)
MacBook Pro (Mid/Late 2007 or newer)
MacBook Air (Late 2008 or newer)
Mac Mini (Early 2009 or newer)
Mac Pro (Early 2008 or newer)
Xserve (Early 2009)
The models must also have at least 2 GB of memory, 8 GB of available hard disk space and Mac OS X Snow Leopard 10.6.8 or higher in order to install OS X Mavericks.


Looks like most lists that came out before Mavericks point to this article as the original source:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/13/06/1...x-109-mavericks

Apple now has it listed officially as posted above:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT5842


Edited by JimW (10/24/13 06:05 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#190969 - 10/24/13 08:07 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Monadnoc Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 03/24/11
Posts: 435
Loc: Eugene, OR, USA
Might as well add my 2 cents here ... this is obviously a touchy subject. First off, let me just state clearly I am not trying to paint VW/Nemetcheck as the bad guys, because I don't think they are. They're as forced into the New World Order of yearly releases as any of us. And I truly appreciate the effort they put into making VW 2014 a stable release and their devoting staff to this forum. And I personally don't upgrade my OS (I'm still on Lion) just because I know/assume both VW 2011 and Cinema 4D 12 will not run predictably on anything newer. Software companies in general, and VW in particular, never support more than one version behind. And that for only something really, really major. Basically, the current release is what gets support. I've never liked that but I accept it as reality. and I work around it. My choice.

BUT ... (you knew there was a but coming), the problem for me, and I suspect many, many others, came with the switch to yearly releases (and I'm not picking on VW for this. Everyone does it now. And I equally hate it for everyone). When new releases were on a 3 to 4 year cycle (sometimes 5) it didn't matter if they only supported one prior release. That was enough to cover 90 percent of their customers. OS's weren't released that frequently. But, in my opinion, if you switch to a one year release cycle then you need to also switch to supporting at least three versions back. Maybe even four. It's just fair. And good business sense. You are getting a lot of people mad at you by not doing it. And you will lose customers. It's as simple as that. As a business you may not like that reality, but that is the reality. Just like as customers we don't like the reality of yearly releases. But that is the reality. For both of us. Plain and simple. We don't like yearly releases due to unresolved bugs and non-support of ongoing OS upgrades, you don't like supporting past releases because there are way too many to keep track of. I sympathize with your plight. All I'm asking is for you to sympathize with mine. And asking people to join subscription services is not going to make us any happier.

And I realize many users are fine with yearly releases and subscriptions. It fits their business model. But many are not. So what are we gonna do about it? Because something has to be done. Yearly releases aren't sustainable for a lot of customers, myself included, unless three or four previous versions are supported. That's the only way out of this mess. And it is a mess. I hope you consider it.





Edited by Monadnoc (10/24/13 08:10 PM)
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#190971 - 10/24/13 08:58 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
IanH Offline
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IMHO most VW yearly updates don't warrant a major version change. Most are basically minor releases/bug fixes which should remain largely compatible across versions and not touted as a new major version. As far as I can see, VW2009 (Parasolid) and VW2011 (Cinema4D) were the last versions to warrant a major release designation all the others since/between have been bug fixes and minor feature enhancements not worthy of a major version designation.

I think the subscription service was introduced as it would be difficult to justify such mediocre updates at full upgrade price.
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#190972 - 10/24/13 09:22 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
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I have no authority to speak about how we price or what/why features get into specific releases (that is a subject far above my paygrade) but truly, many of the current major software packages are going in a number of odd directions.

Adobe for instance fully intends to move their entire CS suite to a model which essentially makes the software something you lease or rent (Creative Cloud), which I don't really know how I feel about. On one hand, it sort of make sense in many scenarios where you only use Photoshop or another package during some parts of the year and not others. On the other hand, it means that you are not able to stay with an older version of a software that you paid for fully, a feature that many users still prefer.

Apple has now effectively set the standard of supplying their OSes completely free of charge, recuperating this expense in the hardware and mobile device markets instead. However, Apple drops support for older hardware on average between 3 and 5 years old, essentially forcing their user base to put money into the hardware line, so that they don't suffer from the loss of profit in making their OS $0.

From my own personal standpoint, I see it thusly: I can not help users that are more then 3 years or 3 versions back, simply because of compatibility concerns that crop up. If a person is on the most recent version, I can rig up a machine with their OS and their version, check the issue, verify if it is user error or a software problem, then go from there. I keep my main two computers (both a Mac and PC always) and software as up to date as possible at all times, keeping extra computers around with older OSes in order to troubleshoot, but this is just my corner of the world and the things I deal with on a daily basis.

I suppose what I'm saying is, selling software has come a long way from buying a cartridge and booting directly to it on my Commodore 64. The advent of omnipresent internet access across most of the world as well as software companies needing to general not only profit, but RELIABLE profit has led most of them to the subscription/cloud model. It makes financial sense but does indeed change the way CAD, Graphic Design, IT companies etc, purchase tools and do business.

Things in major software companies' release structures are changing and we are definitely between worlds at the moment.

The best I can do is provide as much information as possible to as many users as possible, even when it is bad news in some of the above cases, which I take no pleasure in delivering.
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#190983 - 10/25/13 10:07 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: pgym]
Kizza Offline
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Originally Posted By: pgym


Hmm ... Mountain Lion runs fine on my 17" Late '07 MB Pro (2.4 GHz Core 2 Duo), and Mavericks is running fine on our 15" Mid '07 MB Pro (2.2 GHz Core 2 Duo).

IIRC, quad core iMacs weren't introduced until 2009. Maybe your iMac is an Early '07?


Thats interesting, wonder why then I'm unable to upgrade to ML? Must be another reason then, locked EFI, firmware?

I put it down to the processor - obviously in error.


Edited by Kizza (10/25/13 10:08 AM)
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#190985 - 10/25/13 11:15 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
bcd Offline
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Any word on Mavericks running VW2012 successfully?
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#190988 - 10/25/13 01:43 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: bcd]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: bcd
Any word on Mavericks running VW2012 successfully?


I have heard reports from users that it is not. I ran it here and it did open after uninstalling and reinstalling, but did not appear to be stable and crashed during closing.


Edited by JimW (10/25/13 04:52 PM)
Edit Reason: More details
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#191001 - 10/25/13 04:51 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Monadnoc]
VectorGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Monadnoc
When new releases were on a 3 to 4 year cycle (sometimes 5) it didn't matter if they only supported one prior release.


That was then, this is now.

I personally don't want NVM to spend any money or use any resources to support older versions of their software simply because people are too cheap to upgrade yearly. Professional businesses need to budget for annual fees (Select Service). Hobbyists get what they get.

V-G

WAS ONCE:
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AT ONE TIME FLIRTED WITH:
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IS NOW:
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Mavericks baby!

WILL BE NEXT YEAR:
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#191003 - 10/25/13 05:11 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: JimW]
bcd Offline
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Originally Posted By: JimW
I ran it here and it did open after uninstalling and reinstalling, but did not appear to be stable and crashed during closing.


thanks for the timely feedback Jim
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#191005 - 10/25/13 06:00 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Monadnoc]
Christiaan Offline
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Loc: London
Originally Posted By: Monadnoc
We don't like yearly releases due to unresolved bugs and non-support of ongoing OS upgrades, you don't like supporting past releases because there are way too many to keep track of. I sympathize with your plight.

I sympathise with the unresolved bugs issue but v2014 is a case in point against that argument. And with regard to supporting OS upgrades if you're subscribed to VSS then it's a moot point because you'll always have the latest version of VW.
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#191006 - 10/25/13 06:02 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
billtheia Offline
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Vectorgeek, to suggest that "professional" users should upgrade VW every year seems ridiculous to me.

As Ian H. noted above, VW's annual releases are hardly major upgrades and, while the cost of the subscription service is "reasonable," upgrading is always wrought with pain. Having to essentially start from scratch every year isn't sustainable.

Every time I upgrade I have to rebuild my workspace, update all of my template and resource files, put them all in the right places, copy plugins to the new version, and add any customizations I've made. All of this takes time and there are always issues to work through. I have surely lost more hair with each version of VW.

Add to this, the trouble with upgrading existing files. I NEVER move existing files to a new version because EVERY time I've tried, I've had nothing but trouble. So that means that I wind up needing to run two or three versions of VW at a time.

Then there is the lack of stability in the new release. I have found that I really need to wait until at least SP2 before starting to use any version of VW and, ultimately, each version isn't really stable until the last SP (and sometimes not even then.) And don't even get me started with the things that are mysteriously broken with the last SP of any given VW release.

Sometimes I think that VW has looked to politicians for their business model. As soon as they get a new user on board, they start working on getting them to upgrade (essentially starting to run for re-election the moment they take office.) I would venture to say that a typical version of VW isn't reliably usable until 6 months after it's release. That means that a typical user only gets about 6 months of reasonable productivity out of it before the next release is issued.

As any "professional" can tell you, the true cost in all of this is not in buying the software, it's in the time it takes to get it all working correctly and getting staff up to speed. On that front, I don't think that VW is helping any of us with the transition to an annual release cycle. It has surely helped NVW with an increased revenue stream but NVW hasn't done anything to make it easy for users to transition from one version to the next. Instead, NVW has suggested that users benefit from a reliable release schedule because they are able to budget for an annual software purchase (a claim that I find laughable.) Then NVW just throws up their hands and tells users that it is too difficult for them to maintain more than two versions of software. Pretty funny, right? THEY move to an annual release schedule, provide buggy releases with relatively little to warrant upgrading, make users run a virtual gauntlet to upgrade each year, make it extremely risky to transition existing VW files to new versions, and then tell US that it's too difficult for THEM to maintain multiple versions. Again, I am reminded of the politicians.

Yes, the software industry moves quickly but it seems that, rather than stepping up their game, NVW has just shed responsibility to users and cranked up the marketing spin with the hope that no one would notice.

A little more than my 2c worth.
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#191008 - 10/25/13 06:48 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Kevin McAllister Offline
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I'm running VW Designer w/Renderworks. Just as a reference, the monthly cost of my VSS is less than my monthly cell phone bill and on par with my monthly internet costs. VW certainly earns me more income than either of those.

KM
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#191015 - 10/25/13 08:50 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
IanH Offline
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Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
Originally Posted By: Monadnoc
When new releases were on a 3 to 4 year cycle (sometimes 5) it didn't matter if they only supported one prior release.


That was then, this is now.

I personally don't want NVM to spend any money or use any resources to support older versions of their software simply because people are too cheap to upgrade yearly.
Can I please take this opportunity to blow this myth apart.

In my previous life, I was Vice President at Citi Group (in their glory days) responsible for the London FX development team of their global FX (and MM) trading system. If you ever converted money to USD to/from another currency, it is likely that it will have gone through this system. The system age wise was on a par with VW and at one stage we had a UK development team of about 80. There was approx 50 instances of our app, run out of several data centres around the world. There were several generations of our app, independently developed by the regional data centres to meet the regional requirements. These regional systems were seeded from our app but were typically 10 years plus old prior version. From London, we ultimately had to maintain the London seeded systems but also had to support the regional systems with major enhancements. So I am highly experienced in supporting multiple versions of systems across multiple localizations , multiple versions of operating systems and multiple hardware platforms, including 32/64 bit versions.

If we developed a major enhancement in London and wanted to apply it to a regional system, the time taken to integrate the new code in to the regional code would be from 1/2 day to 1-1/2 days, of which the 1/2 day was mostly taken by copying code between data centres.

We could build any version of any system with one command and 4 or so hours build time.

We integrated 64 bit code into regional systems that were in versions 10 years apart in about a day. In other words, once the 1 year development work had been undertaken in London, we could apply that to our regional systems and build it ready for testing within 24 hours.

So maintaining systems many versions old with the latest code base can be done very easily and quickly. Hardly a major hog on resources.

In all of the above, the time frames don't include testing time, however in our case, testing of code reintegrated into other version/regions would simply be done as part of the standard test cycle as the regional centres tested their next release. In other words, zero extra testing was needed. Now I admit here, that with Vectorworks this would mean that additional versions would need to be tested as currently, only current and current-1 versions are supported, but from my experience, VW could do with as much testing as possible.

So, failing to support old versions is likely to be a commercial choice rather than a technical one.

As for those that claim hobbyists use, I suggest that you look at some of the areas that VW are heavily marketed. I regularly speak to people who already claim that VW is far too expensive and for the limited use that they would get from VW simply make it uneconomic for them to use compared with traditional drawing methods. Whilst some professions may get to use VW on a daily basic, there are some areas which, as I say are targeted, probably wouldn't use VW for more than 10 days a year and the cost of entry is prohibitive and even more so when their version has obsolescence built in.
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#191018 - 10/25/13 10:48 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Ozzie Offline
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Registered: 07/30/07
Posts: 942
Loc: Dandenong Ranges Victoria OZ
So Ian, question is:
The software you were in control of; was it as complex as Vectorworks?

As for obsolescence built in; is that more an operating system choice or fault because using W8 that is not my experience
And ...

Originally Posted By: billtheia
Every time I upgrade I have to rebuild my workspace, update all of my template and resource files, put them all in the right places, copy plugins to the new version, and add any customizations I've made. All of this takes time and there are always issues to work through. I have surely lost more hair with each version of VW.


Me too but to do that and move from 2012 to 2014 took maybe an hour and a half or two hours and strangely although I find the experience tedious it reminds me of what I have to do to build Works Spaces, Custom Right Click Menus, Standards, Templates etc ? so although tedious and taking a little time the benefits of the new version no doubt pay back that time spent through that versions cycle

Originally Posted By: billtheia
Add to this, the trouble with upgrading existing files. I NEVER move existing files to a new version because EVERY time I've tried, I've had nothing but trouble. So that means that I wind up needing to run two or three versions of VW at a time.


On my drawing machine right now I have installed and running VWs 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014 ? have no reason to go back further but at times still go back to old projects drawn in them and in an old project will NEVER EVER do any work to it in a version it was not originally done in ? 2010 also is still there because I have provided a little bit of training to two users still using it.

I just do not get it ? The software I use for my own web site and others I control - read this thread:
Eric BTW is the guy who develops Dynamik Web Builder
http://cobaltapps.com/forum/forum/main-category/main-forum/5321-dynamik-is-stopped
Seems something is wrong with Maverick?s version of Safari or Maverick ? who knows? ? For a Wordpress Framework

Would it not seem logical that some of these issues could be Maverick and issues with older versions of VW not running on Mac OS(s) issues with them as I am not experiencing them on W8 64 bit it seems

So ? I read these threads and scratch my head as the criticism being levelled at VW I reckon is unfair and I am not trying to start an operating system war but ?
W8 is the best operating system I have ever used and I love it. I use two computers all day my older ASUS Laptop and my drawing machine ASUS ? specs below ? Laptop for emails etc and fiddling with web sites at night, the internet and desktop purely for VW doing landscape designs, consultancy and my arborist stuff ? They are backed up individually locally twice each and each also to the cloud giving me consistently three backups for each puter

I reckon I know a little bit about what I am doing with computers. Over the next week or so will be buying a new laptop ? high end with lots of grunt because laptop also acts as a backup so that if anything happened to my big machine I can work on it

Whilst periodically I think ?Why do these dudes feel Macs are so good? - I would not go there in a million years as look at these issues this thread and others encapsulates ? let alone the excellent Website framework I use also having issues

And ... The cost of VW! - I have told our distributors here in Oz it is far too cheap through VSS. For a tool I use most of my working days and really like mostly ? I cannot believe it is not more expensive

Bugs ? most software has them ? VW probably is the most complicated software on my computer
In 2014 I have found a couple at least and just yesterday we unearthed an issue that was driving me nuts periodically for a number of versions and I have another that has been driving me nuts with my custom plants for a number of versions ? it?s been submitted ? we will see
Apparently if you remove the name for a landscape area ? that is it has no name and in my case use several of them it may muck up your Worksheet when totalling plants by inserting another Header in the WS. I am going back to an old 2010 and 2012 file to see if that is what caused this anomaly in some old projects

As Kevin says:
[Kevin]the monthly cost of my VSS is less than my monthly cell phone bill and on par with my monthly internet costs. VW certainly earns me more income than either of those.[/Kevin]
Totally agree

Also VW 2014 has been for me excellent and Jim W hanging around here and doing the good stuff he is doing, Sean and the other guy from Graphisoft sitting on the parent board - positive

It is too easy to complain and moan ? overall for my work I would be lost without VW and I continually develop my methods and work flows. Over the years I have been helped so much from generous and good people here

And back to Macs ? yeeek ? ... I do not have any of the issues it seems some are experiencing as per this thread and others - if that stirs up trouble ? for me at least it is the truth from my experience doing what I do. My new laptop will be W8 64bit with at least similar or better specs to me drawing machine and probably another ASUS
Sorry for the rant






Edited by Ozzie (10/25/13 10:49 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#191020 - 10/25/13 10:56 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: billtheia]
VectorGeek Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 196
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: billtheia
Every time I upgrade I have to rebuild my workspace, update all of my template and resource files, put them all in the right places, copy plugins to the new version, and add any customizations I've made. All of this takes time and there are always issues to work through. I have surely lost more hair with each version of VW.

Bill, you have proved my point. Wouldn't you way rather than NNA's technical resources be devoted to a workspace and plug-in transition solution rather than making VW2009 work on Mavericks? I too sympathize with users who are frustrated, but arguing for support 2-3 versions back is ludicrous. As for the upgrade, the +/- one day I spend each year reworking our setup is time lost, but also a chance to tweak, clean-up, and improve our system. I quite enjoy it.

Originally Posted By: billtheia

Add to this, the trouble with upgrading existing files. I NEVER move existing files to a new version because EVERY time I've tried, I've had nothing but trouble. So that means that I wind up needing to run two or three versions of VW at a time.

Not our experience at all. We have successfully transitioned files from 2009 to 2010 to 2011 to 2012 to 2013 to 2014 with few issues.

Originally Posted By: billtheia

Then there is the lack of stability in the new release. I have found that I really need to wait until at least SP2 before starting to use any version of VW.

We wait until at least SP1 to make the switch, so we are a few months staggered from NVW release dates. As I am sure you do, I regularly monitor this discussion board as well as other resources to help in deciding when to make the switch.

Originally Posted By: billtheia

Sometimes I think that VW has looked to politicians for their business model. As soon as they get a new user on board, they start working on getting them to upgrade (essentially starting to run for re-election the moment they take office.) I would venture to say that a typical version of VW isn't reliably usable until 6 months after it's release. That means that a typical user only gets about 6 months of reasonable productivity out of it before the next release is issued.

Nope. The whole industry is moving this way. We pay $50 a month for the complete Adobe suite of products (2 concurrent licenses). $50 a month to always have the newest version, tech support and training resources. I spend $100 a month on coffee.



All the best,

V-G.
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#191021 - 10/25/13 10:59 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kevin McAllister]
VectorGeek Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 196
Loc: Earth
Originally Posted By: Kevin McAllister
I'm running VW Designer w/Renderworks. Just as a reference, the monthly cost of my VSS is less than my monthly cell phone bill and on par with my monthly internet costs. VW certainly earns me more income than either of those.

KM


Agreed 100% Kevin.

VG
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#191023 - 10/25/13 11:19 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: IanH]
VectorGeek Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
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Originally Posted By: IanH
Can I please take this opportunity to blow this myth apart.

Sure, but careful not to try and compare apples to oranges. Is it really fair to compare the technical underpinnings of an application for trading money to a multi-platform 3D modeling and rendering application?

Originally Posted By: IanH
So, failing to support old versions is likely to be a commercial choice rather than a technical one.

Well I think you are incorrect Ian, however if it is a commercial choice, then surely that's NVM's prerogative correct? As a long-time user who doesn't really want to switch our firm to anything else, it's in our best interest that NVM stay profitable and continue to develop their software. If a "commercial" choice supports that, I'm all for it.

Originally Posted By: IanH
As for those that claim hobbyists use, I suggest that you look at some of the areas that VW are heavily marketed. I regularly speak to people who already claim that VW is far too expensive and for the limited use that they would get from VW simply make it uneconomic for them to use compared with traditional drawing methods. Whilst some professions may get to use VW on a daily basic, there are some areas which, as I say are targeted, probably wouldn't use VW for more than 10 days a year and the cost of entry is prohibitive and even more so when their version has obsolescence built in.

I don't see much of NVM's marketing these days aimed at hobbyists. IMO, those that get 10 days of use per year should have little or no say about the future direction of the application development.


V-G
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#191028 - 10/26/13 04:21 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
billtheia Offline
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Am I the only one who isn't drinking the annual subscription model kool-aid? Yes, we all have other recurring expenses that are higher than the cost of VW but SO WHAT? Yes, the software industry as a whole appears to be moving to a subscription model but SO WHAT? Am I supposed to be happy about spending more and getting less? For me, the bottom line is that VSS doesn't seem to be worth the expense and aggravation. I don't think that each annual release makes me any more productive or profitable. In fact, I think that it actually costs me money (in lost time and related hardware upgrade requirements.)

Vectorgeek, I'd much rather NVW spent time making the software faster and less buggy and issue releases every 2-3 years. Your suggestion that NVW's only choices are to spend time making older versions compatible or spend time cranking out more annual releases is ridiculous. NVW decided to move to annual releases, I didn't ask them to do it. The fact that they did it without making it easier to transition between versions actually proves my point. They didn't do it for the users, they did it for the revenue.

I'm glad that you enjoy spending a day every year messing around with VW for no other reason than to deal with NVW's lack of a clear plan for transition. I don't. That lost day means a loss of $1,000 +/- of billable time (on top of the cost of VSS.) Personally, I'd rather spend that day generating revenue or playing with my kids.

Ozzie, I'm starting to wonder the same thing about Macs. When I switched from PCs in 2008, I really felt like they were a better choice. Everything just worked. Now that the folks at Apple have us on the upgrade treadmill, I'm not sure that it's still true. It seems that the annual subscription model isn't any better for users there either.

In the end, I think that I'd just like to get off of the treadmill altogether and get some freaking work done. I have a feeling, though, that is not what my future holds.
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#191029 - 10/26/13 06:16 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Ozzie]
IanH Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ozzie
So Ian, question is:
The software you were in control of; was it as complex as Vectorworks?
Probably far more complex than Vectorworks and most certainly being subject to tighter audit control.
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#191030 - 10/26/13 06:48 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
IanH Offline
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Originally Posted By: VectorGeek

Originally Posted By: IanH
As for those that claim hobbyists use, I suggest that you look at some of the areas that VW are heavily marketed. I regularly speak to people who already claim that VW is far too expensive and for the limited use that they would get from VW simply make it uneconomic for them to use compared with traditional drawing methods. Whilst some professions may get to use VW on a daily basic, there are some areas which, as I say are targeted, probably wouldn't use VW for more than 10 days a year and the cost of entry is prohibitive and even more so when their version has obsolescence built in.

I don't see much of NVM's marketing these days aimed at hobbyists. IMO, those that get 10 days of use per year should have little or no say about the future direction of the application development.


V-G
That's really an arrogant comment. Why do you think that people who have paid the same amount of money for software as you (assuming you paid for it personally and not the company that you work for) should have less say over things than yourself just because they use it less?

Also, garden design is not a hobbyist thing. Its clearly enough of a sector for Vectorworks to be directly marketed at.
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#191031 - 10/26/13 11:39 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: billtheia]
piplx_28 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/11
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I too have to say I am very disappointed with Nemetschek's support on this issue, including their minimal response and brushing aside.

I have been a user since MiniCAD6.

I stayed with VW2008 for a while. I took the update to VW2011 because I had a reason to update. VW2008 had features I wanted. Not because it was the newest version or because it included bug fixes that made the software function as marketed. When I purchased VW2011, there was a list of issues, including (but not limited to) stability, dongle/activation issues and missing functionality...

One particular issue I reported was with regard to selecting symbols in spotlight... I was given a number of work arounds, but NEVER a real solution to the issue. An issue that is a fundamental flaw in the application, not a minor bug! I waited again and again for a resolution in service packs and minor updates. Nothing.

And then I was shocked to see VW2012. And still the select tool was not functioning in my then 11 month old piece of software.

I learnt to live with VW2011's flaws (most still exist)... and from that day, I have chosen not to purchase an upgrade as I have not seen any additional features that I need. I have no reason to have a VSS subscription as it's not cost effective for me. And I don't need new versions... until now. VW was (had been) working fine for me... until now.

In my professional work, it has been a very useful tool in my toolbox. But I do not rely on Vectorworks for my daily income. As a result, I cannot justify VSS subscriptions or yearly updates, which are to me (as I am not in need of the "new" features) nothing but bug fixes to my 3 year old piece of software. I bought my MacBook Pro and VW2011 at the same time, and I'm still using my MacBook Pro without issue.

Originally Posted By: billtheia
Am I the only one who isn't drinking the annual subscription model kool-aid?


No - I'm right there with-you!

Originally Posted By: billtheia
Vectorgeek, I'd much rather NVW spent time making the software faster and less buggy and issue releases every 2-3 years. Your suggestion that NVW's only choices are to spend time making older versions compatible or spend time cranking out more annual releases is ridiculous.


It seems profit seems to be taking priority over the user experience. I am all in support of adding additional functionality, but when it affects the products reliability or the user experience, then it's a problem!

As for those saying that if we want to keep using VW2011, not to update to OS X 10.9, isn't that contrary to the argument? You've just been telling me to purchase an upgrade or subscription!

I'm not asking for support of VW v12 or MiniCAD; we're talking about a 3 year old piece of software!

For me, I will not be purchasing an upgrade. I will not be subscribing to VSS.... Up till today, I had been using VW in my professional work, and had been lecturing VW at a major educational institution. That will end from today. You've lost a user. A user who has for many years recommended Vectorwork Spotlight as the best drafting solution for entertainment. And I will be recommending everyone (including the education institution) to seek alternatives.

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#191032 - 10/26/13 11:48 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
piplx_28 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 5
Loc: Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Out of interest, the only piece of software (other than Vectorworks) that didn't work after the 10.9 update was VirtualBox. A re-install (maintaining all settings) resolved that one.

I must be one of those "lucky ones" also.


Edited by Matthew Strachan (10/26/13 11:49 AM)
Edit Reason: Typo

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#191033 - 10/26/13 02:12 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Ozzie Offline
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So to pr?cis this thread

Mavericks. Apple's new OS X update, named after a famous surf spot in Northern California, sounds adventurous ? and maybe a little treacherous. Is your trusty Mac ready to catch the next big wave?

Totally and completely glad I have nothing at all to do with it

How can a software manufacturer, seller, supplier; whatever they do or are; be expected to support their wares that are three years old just because a user has decided to upgrade to something new today?

Do not get it and never will
Whoever upgrades to Mavericks please get it - it is your choice; as it is to use / run a Mac or Windows or whatever

I am though quite happy and contented doing things as I do
My yearly upgrade through VSS is I think under $700.00 AU - be happy to pay more than that


Edited by Ozzie (10/26/13 02:13 PM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#191034 - 10/26/13 02:23 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Ozzie Offline
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As for this ....

Originally Posted By: IanH
Probably far more complex than Vectorworks and most certainly being subject to tighter audit control.


Tighter audit controls I get as you were dealing with $$$

Complexity - doubt it very much - sorry but were you spinning the $$$ in 3D space without Parasolids back then?
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#191035 - 10/26/13 02:54 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: billtheia]
Kevin McAllister Offline
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Things are all relative.

Everyone has the right to choose. No one (not Apple, not Microsoft, not NV) has made anyone upgrade. NV has been very clear and even has a compatibility chart so you can make an informed choice about upgrading and even Mac vs. PC.

Originally Posted By: billtheia
That lost day means a loss of $1,000 +/- of billable time (on top of the cost of VSS.)


In theatre, where I work much of the time, $1,000 +/- per week of billable time can often be the norm. From my perspective you seem as profit oriented as NV. Is that ok, of course. So why is it so wrong for NV?

The reality is that VW exists because NV are able to generate revenue to support development and keep the shareholders happy.

KM
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#191036 - 10/26/13 03:49 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Ozzie]
IanH Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ozzie
As for this ....

Originally Posted By: IanH
Probably far more complex than Vectorworks and most certainly being subject to tighter audit control.


Tighter audit controls I get as you were dealing with $$$

Complexity - doubt it very much - sorry but were you spinning the $$$ in 3D space without Parasolids back then?

Vectorworks = single user application processing some user input/output in real time, 2 application servers that I can see, ? lines of code

The app that I was responsible for = 500 simultaneous users (architecturally unlimited but you can only fit so many staff across two trading floors), processing all input and enquiries in real time (<100ms time is money) whilst simultaneously processing xx real time data and external trade feeds again < 100ms latency processed by >50 application servers, >1500 reports running on x distributed systems spread across 2 continents. All whilst maintaining accuracy for current and 30 year future accuracy of >$40 trillion in cash flows to the cent. And just under 4 million lines of code.

And that was just the London system. There were more than 50 instances all regionalised spread in data centres around the world.

So it may not have been too graphically challenging (although our dealer input screens were X-windows and Wacom A3 oversized tablets), Vectorworks is doing far less than our application was doing.

I think it would be fair to say that our app was at least as complex as Vectorworks.
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#191037 - 10/26/13 06:38 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kevin McAllister]
billtheia Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kevin McAllister
Things are all relative.

Everyone has the right to choose. No one (not Apple, not Microsoft, not NV) has made anyone upgrade. NV has been very clear and even has a compatibility chart so you can make an informed choice about upgrading and even Mac vs. PC.

Originally Posted By: billtheia
That lost day means a loss of $1,000 +/- of billable time (on top of the cost of VSS.)


In theatre, where I work much of the time, $1,000 +/- per week of billable time can often be the norm. From my perspective you seem as profit oriented as NV. Is that ok, of course. So why is it so wrong for NV?

The reality is that VW exists because NV are able to generate revenue to support development and keep the shareholders happy.

KM


Yes, I am interested in making profit. I live in a capitalistic society that relies on $. WIthout profit, I would have no roof over my head or food on my table.

I do not begrudge NVW making a profit. I begrudge them increasing profit while simultaneously decreasing quality and dedication to user satisfaction.
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#191044 - 10/27/13 12:51 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
M5d Offline
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Registered: 02/09/08
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I have no problem sticking with the yearly upgrade / subscription cycle. The best solution for stability seems to be stepping along about six months behind the whole tech juggernaut's annual strides. There is an issue specific to VW on the Mac now however, which Ozzie?s comments highlight.

File import / update is not reliable. Whether from advancing features or new bugs, there have been major conflicts in the past and there's likely to be more down the road. The easy solution to a lot of problem solving, repair work, reworking or even worse, files with issues that straight up crash later versions during import, has previously been the same on the Mac as Ozzie has on Windows. That is, keeping multiple older versions running, particularly those prior to major underlying advances.

The construction industry has a lot of speculation; projects get shelved and then often spring back to life years down the track or simply roll across years in development. Those initial investments can be substantial and need to be preserved. Holding back on the OS to accommodate VW has its own problems and hardware upgrades can make it impossible.

Vectorworks needs a better support strategy adapted to the new reality of a fast moving OS cycle on the Mac. Maintaining the compatibility of older Vectorworks releases over multiple OS cycles shouldn't be linked to whether people are upgrading to the latest version or not. If anything, longer OS compatibility of older Vectorworks releases encourages and provides confidence in keeping up to date and adhering with the upgrade cycle, because it removes the fear associated with the conflict that now exists between staying current and playing Russian roulette with older files and slow moving clients. File problems are far more costly than paying a yearly subscription. Currently, each software edition now faces obsolescence just 12 months beyond the end of its release cycle, along with their associated files facing potential problems from then onward, a situation that does not suit this industry at all.





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#191049 - 10/27/13 06:33 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Assembly Offline
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I thought one of the benefits of a BIM model is to allow interoperability between different packages. From design through to operations.

Kinda funny then that a lot of users won't use later version VW to work on files started in earlier versions.
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#191052 - 10/27/13 12:19 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Assembly]
M5d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Assembly
I thought one of the benefits of a BIM model is to allow interoperability between different packages. From design through to operations.

Kinda funny then that a lot of users won't use later version VW to work on files started in earlier versions.

I think you?re linking two separate issues together there Assembly. External file exchange formats like IFC and GBXML are not subject to the issues that arise moving drawings forward from version to version. They?re not useful as a solution either, because they?re not designed to carry the editable functionality of the source file.

There?s no reluctance to move files forward, the results are simply unpredictable, to the point where some files can refuse to import into a later version of Vectorworks. If files move forward without issue, all is well and good. I tend to think the failures and problems that do occur migrating forward, are just a cost of the software progressing. Add to that the unpredictability of what we do and you get to many variables in files to waste time trying to either track down a cause or find a solution.

Until recent years we?ve always had a good alternative, i.e. keep multiple versions running and complete work in their native versions. Now however, when you combine an OS advancing at an annual pace and as Jim states, making regular ?massive changes? with Vectorworks being supported just one OS beyond its release cycle, the ability to maintain the coexistence of files with their native version of Vectorworks is precariously short.





Edited by M5d (10/28/13 06:44 AM)

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#191120 - 10/29/13 05:06 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: IanH]
VectorGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: IanH
The app that I was responsible for = 500 simultaneous users (architecturally unlimited but you can only fit so many staff across two trading floors), processing all input and enquiries in real time (<100ms time is money) whilst simultaneously processing xx real time data and external trade feeds again < 100ms latency processed by >50 application servers, >1500 reports running on x distributed systems spread across 2 continents. All whilst maintaining accuracy for current and 30 year future accuracy of >$40 trillion in cash flows to the cent.


$40 trillion or -$40 trillion? It was CitiGroup right? ;-)

In all seriousness Ian, this has gone off track. I would contend that you really have no idea as to the comparative complexity of VW versus the CitiGroup banking app, so probably better to not comment.

The fact is, NVM made a conscious decision to adopt a business model that is becoming more and more common in the industry. Like it or not, it's probably here to stay. As users, I think it would be more productive for us to continue to demand better stability in x.00 releases, better transition tools for firms that implement multiple licenses, and increased focus on improving core tools.

V-G.
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#191122 - 10/29/13 05:14 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: IanH]
VectorGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: IanH
Originally Posted By: VectorGeek

Originally Posted By: IanH
As for those that claim hobbyists use, I suggest that you look at some of the areas that VW are heavily marketed. I regularly speak to people who already claim that VW is far too expensive and for the limited use that they would get from VW simply make it uneconomic for them to use compared with traditional drawing methods. Whilst some professions may get to use VW on a daily basic, there are some areas which, as I say are targeted, probably wouldn't use VW for more than 10 days a year and the cost of entry is prohibitive and even more so when their version has obsolescence built in.

I don't see much of NVM's marketing these days aimed at hobbyists. IMO, those that get 10 days of use per year should have little or no say about the future direction of the application development.


V-G
That's really an arrogant comment. Why do you think that people who have paid the same amount of money for software as you (assuming you paid for it personally and not the company that you work for) should have less say over things than yourself just because they use it less?

Also, garden design is not a hobbyist thing. Its clearly enough of a sector for Vectorworks to be directly marketed at.


Because we have been users (10+ licenses) for 21 years, have beta tested for 15 years, run user groups, worked closely with DG/NNA/NVW and distributors to improve the software, participated in focus groups, online forums, mailing lists, taught MC/VW to countless parties.

That's why.

Vectorus Geekus
A man with absolutely nothing against garden design.
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#191125 - 10/29/13 05:32 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: M5d]
Christiaan Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 6127
Loc: London
Originally Posted By: M5d
Vectorworks needs a better support strategy adapted to the new reality of a fast moving OS cycle on the Mac.

My preference would be to make converting/upgrading of files more reliable (converting to v2014 has been a reasonably good experience for us). This, surely, is the ultimate solution as it allows everyone to take advantage of advances straight way and forget about supporting multiple versions of VW within an office. This is particularly the case when you have projects that span over multiple years.
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#191126 - 10/29/13 05:40 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Christiaan]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Christiaan
Originally Posted By: M5d
Vectorworks needs a better support strategy adapted to the new reality of a fast moving OS cycle on the Mac.

My preference would be to make converting/upgrading of files more reliable (converting to v2014 has been a reasonably good experience for us). This, surely, is the ultimate solution as it allows everyone to take advantage of advances straight way and forget about supporting multiple versions of VW within an office. This is particularly the case when you have projects that span over multiple years.


^ This. The main upgrade pain point that users call in with is (more commonly than OS compatibility) issues with file conversion and workspace import/preferences migration to the new version.

If we can remove these snags from the upgrade process, the Service Select program and upgrading yearly will become much more appealing.


Edited by JimW (10/29/13 05:40 PM)
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#191129 - 10/29/13 05:51 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: JimW]
VectorGeek Offline
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Registered: 05/14/07
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Originally Posted By: JimW
Originally Posted By: Christiaan
Originally Posted By: M5d
Vectorworks needs a better support strategy adapted to the new reality of a fast moving OS cycle on the Mac.

My preference would be to make converting/upgrading of files more reliable (converting to v2014 has been a reasonably good experience for us). This, surely, is the ultimate solution as it allows everyone to take advantage of advances straight way and forget about supporting multiple versions of VW within an office. This is particularly the case when you have projects that span over multiple years.


^ This. The main upgrade pain point that users call in with is (more commonly than OS compatibility) issues with file conversion and workspace import/preferences migration to the new version.

If we can remove these snags from the upgrade process, the Service Select program and upgrading yearly will become much more appealing.


Agree with you both 100%. It's not practical for us to operate multiple versions (and associated ancillary resources) at the same time, therefore a "full" upgrade is the best. I'd be hugely supportive of any mechanism that allowed simple transition of workspaces and plug-ins for a start.

V-G.
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#191131 - 10/29/13 06:31 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
rkraybill Offline
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Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 54
Loc: Kansas, USA
I won't upgrade to OS 10.9 at the office until I am confident that my essential software will run reliably on it. It is not very difficult to wait a few days after a new OS X release and check out discussion forums like this to see if there are problems with the key software releases that I depend upon. In my case, the version of Parallels that we use was the sticking point. Sometimes, it is just better to take a breath and wait a little while ...
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#191140 - 10/29/13 07:38 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
IanH Offline
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Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
In all seriousness Ian, this has gone off track. I would contend that you really have no idea as to the comparative complexity of VW versus the CitiGroup banking app, so probably better to not comment.

The fact is, NVM made a conscious decision to adopt a business model that is becoming more and more common in the industry. Like it or not, it's probably here to stay. As users, I think it would be more productive for us to continue to demand better stability in x.00 releases, better transition tools for firms that implement multiple licenses, and increased focus on improving core tools.

V-G.
The point that I made was that tools exist that when used properly allow highly complex computer applications to be managed very quickly and easily with regard to version control. It not like a building/landscape/(insert your discipline) design where changing one element can invalidate many/all others.

Quite correct. I cannot comment on how VW organise their development. They may well be a complete bunch of disorganised hackers where changing lines of code and reintegrating into other versions is hard, or they may be highly organised professionals like we were at Citi where everything change management is part of the standard process and managing multiple versions and changes was a breeze.

As for the adopted business models, that is a much wider topic of discussion. Subscription based models may suit some but not others.
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#191141 - 10/29/13 07:54 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
IanH Offline
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Registered: 05/31/05
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Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
[Because we have been users (10+ licenses) for 21 years, have beta tested for 15 years, run user groups, worked closely with DG/NNA/NVW and distributors to improve the software, participated in focus groups, online forums, mailing lists, taught MC/VW to countless parties.

That's why.

Vectorus Geekus
A man with absolutely nothing against garden design.
Do I assume from this that your company have bought these 10+ licenses and that you have had no personal financial liability in the purchase of these? Unlike many VW users who personally have to pay for their licenses and therefor have to prioritise their expenditure on software against other necessities, it is easy for those who do not have to justify the cost of upgrading to overlook the fact that some of us have to prioritise a set of hyped up new features against a years caffeine intake and Internet access.

Glad you have nothing against garden design.
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#191142 - 10/29/13 08:21 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: IanH]
VectorGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: IanH
I cannot comment on how VW organise their development. They may well be a complete bunch of disorganised hackers where changing lines of code and reintegrating into other versions is hard, or they may be highly organised professionals like we were at Citi where everything change management is part of the standard process and managing multiple versions and changes was a breeze.

Or they may be highly organized and managed professionals, who work for a company that is forward-looking and doesn't see a huge financial upside to devote the required resources needed to re-code and support versions of their software that are three years old.

Originally Posted By: IanH
As for the adopted business models, that is a much wider topic of discussion. Subscription based models may suit some but not others.

Again, the cost of VSS is pretty insignificant as compared to almost every other line item in our company's financials.


V-G.
"Thar's gold in them hills."
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#191144 - 10/29/13 08:44 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: IanH]
VectorGeek Offline
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Originally Posted By: IanH
Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
[Because we have been users (10+ licenses) for 21 years, have beta tested for 15 years, run user groups, worked closely with DG/NNA/NVW and distributors to improve the software, participated in focus groups, online forums, mailing lists, taught MC/VW to countless parties.

That's why.

Vectorus Geekus
A man with absolutely nothing against garden design.
Do I assume from this that your company have bought these 10+ licenses and that you have had no personal financial liability in the purchase of these? Unlike many VW users who personally have to pay for their licenses and therefor have to prioritise their expenditure on software against other necessities, it is easy for those who do not have to justify the cost of upgrading to overlook the fact that some of us have to prioritise a set of hyped up new features against a years caffeine intake and Internet access.

Glad you have nothing against garden design.


You could assume that, but you'd be wrong. As a shareholder in our company, I had a vested financial interest in the decision to adopt VSS. As the managing technical director, I continue to have a vested interest in seeing that our team has the latest tools and that those tools work properly.

We too prioritize, and while there are always features in a new release that we don't need and will never use, there are also features which make the upgrade worthwhile. Not to mention, the critical element of technical support (both from NVW and through this valuable group of message board users) is always better when one is using the latest version.

Again, my policy is to wait until SP1 (occasionally SP2) before making the switch. My time to implement the new system is budgeted for at the outset of the year, and it offers a chance to clean up wayward libraries, fix some bugs in our internally developed plug-ins, and call the staff together for a 2-3 hour "what's new" office training seminar. That time is well-spent and generates significant productivity improvements every time.

And you can take all that to the bank. Provided it is not invested in sub-prime mortgages.



V-G.
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#191158 - 10/30/13 02:11 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: JimW]
M5d Offline
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Originally Posted By: Christiaan
My preference would be to make converting/upgrading of files more reliable (converting to v2014 has been a reasonably good experience for us). This, surely, is the ultimate solution as it allows everyone to take advantage of advances straight way and forget about supporting multiple versions of VW within an office. This is particularly the case when you have projects that span over multiple years.


Yes, I?m always eager, nay hungry, to move on to a bigger better BIM future. I?m with you here; reliable conversion is definitely the ultimate solution. Running multiple versions is not good, it?s just the most secure solution we?ve had over a number of years. Seamless upgrade / file conversion sounds great, if we have it! I don?t know how well the other BIMs perform, but there?s a common refrain from Vectorworks reps, veterans and moderators alike on these boards, particularly around release time, that begins something like this; did you start a new file or convert an existing one?

Running multiple versions of the same software isn?t a solution I?ve come across elsewhere, but it is a solution I?ve needed and relied upon repeatedly in Vectorworks, particularly with larger files not converting well or crashing the import process. Seeing the length of what has represented file security for Vectorworks drawn down to just twelve months beyond the release cycle, strikes fear and trepidation into my BIM heart.



Originally Posted By: JimW
^ This. The main upgrade pain point that users call in with is (more commonly than OS compatibility) issues with file conversion and workspace import/preferences migration to the new version.

If we can remove these snags from the upgrade process, the Service Select program and upgrading yearly will become much more appealing.


I guess my point is, the issues Vectorworks has with file conversion / import from older versions is now synonymous with OS compatibility. Supporting just one OS beyond the release cycle combined with an annual OS cycle removes the traditional method Vectorworks has had for preserving and providing file security over time. Your snag?s snag Jim, is that ?if? at the start of your sentence. While I appreciate While I?m overjoyed that there appears to be a renewed effort going into stabilising Vectorworks, there?s a level of professional risk attached to the current neither nor situation that has arisen here, which I can?t say I appreciate.







Edited by M5d (10/30/13 06:49 AM)

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#191159 - 10/30/13 02:25 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
pgym Offline
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Registered: 11/23/06
Posts: 71
Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
Originally Posted By: IanH
I cannot comment on how VW organise their development. They may well be a complete bunch of disorganised hackers where changing lines of code and reintegrating into other versions is hard, or they may be highly organised professionals like we were at Citi where everything change management is part of the standard process and managing multiple versions and changes was a breeze.

Or they may be highly organized and managed professionals, who work for a company that is forward-looking and doesn't see a huge financial upside to devote the required resources needed to re-code and support versions of their software that are three years old.


Given NVM's track record of bungling the initial release of EVERY version going back to at least 2006, their record of SP 1 breaking functions that did work in the initial release, their inability to leverage multi-core processing for anything other than some Renderworks modes, and their on-going unwillingness (or inability) to lay out even a suggested timeline to transition to 64-bit architecture, there is FAR more evidence for IanH's disorganized hackers scenario than for a highly organized, forward-looking professional scenario.

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#191166 - 10/30/13 10:58 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: VectorGeek]
Christiaan Offline
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Originally Posted By: VectorGeek
Again, my policy is to wait until SP1 (occasionally SP2) before making the switch.

Good in principle but I've found SP1 to less stable that the initial release of v2014.
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#191199 - 10/30/13 05:57 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
VectorGeek Offline
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So I gather. That's why I added SP2 as an occasional possibility. Let's hope things improve with the next SP.

VG
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#191208 - 10/30/13 06:51 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Christiaan Offline
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Well, put another way, the first release of 2014 is one if the most stable I've used of any releases.
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#191210 - 10/30/13 06:57 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
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Something is up with users that have gone from 2014 SP0 to SP1, however I havent been able to nail it down specifically yet.

For the time being, this procedure:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/1099/Resetting+Vectorworks+Preferences

...performed on machines behaving oddly after the patch seems to correct many or all of the issues. The steps above include wiping your workspaces and templates, but I think these two types of items are unrelated and could be backed up/replaced afterwards.


Edited by JimW (10/30/13 06:57 PM)
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#191424 - 11/04/13 09:14 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
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#191439 - 11/05/13 08:18 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Kizza Offline
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Not unreasonable to expect support for at least two versions back (2012)

BTW, what is so "major" about Mavericks? Apart from a few additional features it doesn't appear to be anything groundbreaking.

Can I ask, what was NVW's position when Snow Leopard was released in terms of prior version support? (that version of OSX was considered to be a major upgrade)
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#191443 - 11/05/13 01:20 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Patrick Fritsch Offline
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If your in a production environment with deadlines, No matter what version of VW your using, you should always wait for a couple SP's to come through of any OS.

The other modeling program I use is Modo 701 and their forum has had many comments about Mavericks compatibility issues, that are apparently Apples bugs to resolve.
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#191445 - 11/05/13 02:17 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kizza]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kizza

BTW, what is so "major" about Mavericks? Apart from a few additional features it doesn't appear to be anything groundbreaking.

Can I ask, what was NVW's position when Snow Leopard was released in terms of prior version support? (that version of OSX was considered to be a major upgrade)


There were a large number of background changes in 10.9, otherwise the older versions of Vectorworks would have simply launched as they did before.

For OS X 10.6, Vectorworks 12.5 and older ceased to function properly due to similar changes made by Apple.
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#191452 - 11/05/13 04:15 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
IanH Offline
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I'm going to stir this pot a little regarding deprecated functions.

Functions do not just disappear overnight, they are marked as deprecated then, after a period of time, disappear. That is, Apple puts a big warning notice out every time the code is compiled which basically says, the function that you are using is on a limited life span and one day, we will remove it. We suggest that you update your code to use the alternative functions - which often Apple very nicely suggest appropriate alternatives.

Now, I've just quickly gone through the release notes to see what functions have been removed in 10.9 and paid attention at what point they were marked as deprecated.

Now, I don't know what functions Vectorworks uses but to give people an idea of time frames involved between functions being marked as deprecated and when they disappeared, I will use the ColorSync functions as an example - which possibly could be used by Vectorworks for things like colour management and thus be reason why VW2011 and earlier cease to function.

ColourSync was marked as deprecated in OSX 10.6, Snow Leopard, which checking release dates, was released in August 2009. Without even taking beta development cycle into consideration which would likely have made the OSX 10.6 development API available to developers probably around May 2006 time, it is clear that, notice of ColorSync's impending demise would have been known to NNA over a year (if not 18 months) before Vectorworks 2011's release. Plenty of time IMHO to use the recommended alternatives especially as most programmers will want to see a clean build and not ones full of warnings.


On a more positive note, I see that with 10.9, Apple Quicktime Framework and QTKit are now deprecated. Which means that the countdown to removing the Quicktime barrier to 64 bit has well and truly started? So 3-4 years away.
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#191458 - 11/05/13 05:56 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
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If we only developed for OS X, it may have been relatively easy, yes. But since Vectorworks is so complex with so many interdependencies, we can not rebuild huge chunks of the application from scratch once a deprecation notice starts occurring, especially since Apple does this so frequently, effectively making it impossible to keep up.

On the Windows side for instance, Vectorworks has been compatible with Windows XP for the last 11-12 years and many versions of Vectorworks from 5-8 years ago will still run on Windows 7, because Microsoft does not deprecate so many functions so frequently.

Its simply a matter of making the software as compatible as possible given the time allotted, while at the same time still advancing the program itself. If we spent all of engineering's time on going back and updating old versions or worrying about keeping software compatible with versions of OSes that wont be released for 3-4 years, we wouldn't have time for anything else.

It is unfortunate that some users are running into compatibility problems, but again, these issues are avoidable as users can either choose to upgrade to the latest OSes and hardware along with upgrading Vectorworks, or they can choose not to and stay with hardware/software combinations that work together.
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#191462 - 11/05/13 07:13 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Patrick Fritsch Offline
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I agree with Jim, this is the scenario with every piece of software out there...

I love the latest and greatest shinny new stuff as much as the next but... I'm still running Win 7 because it's the combo that just works with all my hardware and software.

An OS's main purpose is to be a "toolbox" to run your "tools" which you use to output work and make some money. I prefer having quicker evolution in my "tools" than the box their in, for productivity reasons.
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#191470 - 11/05/13 08:43 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Patrick Fritsch]
Kizza Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fritsch
I agree with Jim, this is the scenario with every piece of software out there...


I'm not buying it.

Vectorworks 2012 is the buggiest software I have ever owned.

Sounds to me like a convenient way to cut ties with this version and salvage the salvageable.
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#191472 - 11/05/13 08:47 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: JimW]
Kizza Offline
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Originally Posted By: JimW
But since Vectorworks is so complex with so many interdependencies, we can not rebuild huge chunks of the application....


Sounds like a ground up rebuild is needed then, especially to strip out legacy code and tools.

Either that or you need to employ more engineers.
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#191473 - 11/05/13 08:54 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kizza]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kizza

Sounds like a ground up rebuild is needed then, especially to strip out legacy code and tools.


We do rebuild components as needed, regularly. That is why the current two versions are compatible on the most recent OSes.
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#191474 - 11/05/13 09:06 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Kizza]
Patrick Fritsch Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kizza


Vectorworks 2012 is the buggiest software I have ever owned.

Sounds to me like a convenient way to cut ties with this version and salvage the salvageable.


If you find VW 2012 buggy..that's probably a good reason to upgrade to 2014...

There is absolutely no reason to upgrade an OS if you don't upgrade your installed software...it's like trying to live in two separate decades or walking at 2 different speeds. (That's only possible if you smoke the good stuff!)
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#191475 - 11/05/13 09:27 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: Patrick Fritsch]
Kizza Offline
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Originally Posted By: Fritsch
[quote=Kizza]
(That's only possible if you smoke the good stuff!)


I wouldn't know so no comment smile
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#191476 - 11/05/13 09:46 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: JimW]
M5d Offline
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Originally Posted By: JimW
It is unfortunate that some users are running into compatibility problems, but again, these issues are avoidable as users can either choose to upgrade to the latest OSes and hardware along with upgrading Vectorworks, or they can choose not to and stay with hardware/software combinations that work together.


Jim, it?s not a simple either or scenario. Working an old file in a new version rarely comes without problems and to often they are major problems. If file import was robust, your either or scenario would be acceptable.

Backward OS compatibility, robust file import / upgrade, BIM integration, better real world BIM tools, the prevalence of bugs, general stability, the pace of development, what doesn?t ultimately boil down to a question of resource allocation?

By saying legacy code with ?so many interdependencies? and Apple?s development pace are ?effectively making it impossible to keep up?; are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?

If this is a discussion about resource allocation problems, then discuss what it will take to fix those problems, so we can show support for what?s needed.

Sean Flaherty recently said in an interview , that Vectorworks has 450 000 users of which "more than half of licenses were delivered to subscribers last year". That?s >225 000 active subscribers. Interestingly, Nemetschek?s Q3 Financial Report says Nemetschek has >300 000 customers across all of its 11 brands, by my estimate that makes the Vectorworks user base about 2/3rds of Nemetschek's total active user base, but that?s a discussion for another place.

What you?re now arguing in response to the topic of this thread is an economic equation, isn?t it?

Software Problem = Engineering Hours

Engineering Hours = x Engineers

x Engineers = $ $$$ $$$

$ $$$ $$$ / 225 000 active subscribers = $ increase per license subscription

If its just a question of economics, pick a problem, any problem, put a price on it and see if there?s user support to fix it!








Edited by M5d (11/06/13 05:53 AM)

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#191477 - 11/05/13 09:54 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: M5d]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: M5d
You?re saying legacy code with ?so many interdependencies? and Apple?s development pace are ?effectively making it impossible to keep up?. Are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?


That it would be economically unviable to support more than the previous two versions, most likely. I cant speak to the specific numbers (though I have never figured out how the Nemetschek user base numbers work, that headcount doesn't make sense to me either...) but I do know that charging users that keep up to date extra to support software for users that do not upgrade regularly would be unfair.

The idea of users paying to keep their older versions patched definitely has merit, but not something there is any sort of support system for here currently.

Originally Posted By: M5d
Jim, it?s not a simple either or scenario. Working an old file in a new version rarely comes without problems and to often they are major problems. If file import was robust, your either or scenario would be acceptable.


^ Completely agree with this. The conversion issues in files/workspaces/preferences are the main factors holding a regular and consistent upgrade path back.


Edited by JimW (11/05/13 09:58 PM)
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#191495 - 11/06/13 01:32 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: M5d]
Kizza Offline
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Originally Posted By: M5d
Are you saying Vectorworks on the Mac is becoming economically unviable?


If you follow some of the arguments in this thread to their ultimate conclusion, you would be forgiven for asking yourself this question.


Edited by Kizza (11/06/13 02:06 AM)
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#191497 - 11/06/13 01:52 AM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
Kevin McAllister Offline
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I'd be careful what you wish for. Everyone would still be using floppy drives if Microsoft had its way....

KM
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#191520 - 11/06/13 03:20 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
lcda Offline
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i have VW 2008 and 2009 full versions and 2012 student and i hate 2012 it uses a lot of vram so it's very slow on big 2d drafting and 3d models the faster is 2008 version it's very stupid that upgrades are just for doing software worse.

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#191524 - 11/06/13 03:53 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: lcda]
JimW Offline
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Originally Posted By: lcda
i have VW 2008 and 2009 full versions and 2012 student and i hate 2012 it uses a lot of vram so it's very slow on big 2d drafting and 3d models the faster is 2008 version it's very stupid that upgrades are just for doing software worse.


The later versions have greater hardware requirements, yes. A Machine that ran 2008 without issue may no longer be able to keep up with software created 6 years later.
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OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
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I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#192156 - 11/18/13 10:11 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
orgelbum Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 11/16/13
Posts: 1
I have VW 2008, and it is perfect for what I use it for. Plus I have a LOT of time invested in formulas and tools and so on. To find out that it does not work with Mavericks, After I have updated to it has me really upset and annoyed. I get tons of email from VW about all kinds of things, would it not have been smarter to email the licensed clients and tell them NOT to update instead of what has happened, and cause such grief. I have no need for anything more sophisticated than 2008, I am familiar with it and I am used to it.

To solve my problem, "being in the middle of a large and complex drawing when I upgraded" I searched through my office to find old computers that could run it, no luck. So today I went off and bought a new MAC mini with the old system on it and am dedicating it to VW work. It was a far cheaper, however avoidable, alternative than to spend 3k on something that I already own, to do something that i already do......I will be getting new software and it will not be VW, as I can not trust that they will not screw me again.

This could have been handled much better.

Colin Walsh

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#192157 - 11/18/13 10:27 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: alain]
JimW Offline
Tech Support
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/25/06
Posts: 4318
Loc: Columbia, MD
I'm sorry you encountered this, but we made sure to post the compatibility immediately both on the forums as well as on the knowledgebase as soon as OS X 10.9 was launched:

http://kbase.vectorworks.net/questions/1...List+2013-10-22

Such items do not go out in those types of communications as we do not have lists of users on particular operating systems, that is not something tracked for use in marketing emails.

In the future, make sure to contact us or check the compatibility article before performing something as major as an operating system upgrade, we can confirm whether your combination of Vectorworks software and OS will work or not, before any problems are caused.

After upgrading, unfortunately the only two options are downgrading the OS (which entails wiping the machine completely and reinstalling, then restoring from a backup) or upgrading to a supported version of Vectorworks.


Edited by JimW (11/18/13 10:27 PM)
_________________________
Jim Wilson, Nemetschek Vectorworks
Knowledgebase Management - http://kbase.vectorworks.net/
Vectorworks 2015
OS X 10.10.4 - MacBook Pro - 2.5GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - Radeon R9 M370X
Win 8.1 64bit - Lenovo Y510p - 2.4GHz 8core i7 - 16GB RAM - GeForce GT 750M
RepRap Prusa i2 3D Printer

I will be working heavily on many 2016 projects from the end of June through late August, my presence on the boards may be reduced until then. Please contact me via direct message if need be.

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#194878 - 02/02/14 08:39 PM Re: 10.9 Maverick Upgrade and Vectorworks 2011 not working anymore [Re: orgelbum]
Peter Yianilos Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 12/11/11
Posts: 2
Loc: United States
I'm in the exact same boat and am very disappointed that neither Apple nor Nemetchek thought to advise of this. I will now go through the time-intensive, and slightly risky process of downgrading my OSX back to ML. I go forward with a new, reduced level of confidence for the future.
_________________________
Peter J. Yianilos,
Artisan

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