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#84906 - 08/29/07 08:31 AM Wavy insulation component in wall tool
Christiaan Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
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We'd like the ability to use wavy insulation (an industry standard) as a component in the wall tool, instead having to use a cross hatch.

This would probably be in my top three wish-list. I imagine it's difficult to code, but it would save us a lot of hassle in that we'd be able to use industry conventions while also keeping out drawings consistent throughout all scales.
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#84908 - 08/29/07 09:06 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
mike m oz Offline

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Christiaan - I have drawings with lots of 'wavy' insulation in them, The screen redraw times are horrendous. All those curves...

It taught me a lesson. Use other means to indicate insulation in small scale drawings and only use the insulation tool in large scale details and the like.

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#84910 - 08/29/07 09:16 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: mike m oz]
Christiaan Offline
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 Originally Posted By: mike m oz
Christiaan - I have drawings with lots of 'wavy' insulation in them, The screen redraw times are horrendous. All those curves...

So do I, but I'm not asking for horrendous redraw times, I'm asking for wavy lines (without the horrendous redraw times). i.e. wavy insulation probably needs a redesign before being included as a wall component.

Is such resource use really inherent in a wavy line? Surely there must be a way to make it more efficient? How do other CAD programs deal with this problem?
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#84913 - 08/29/07 09:24 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
mike m oz Offline

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Maybe if it is a hatch.

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#84920 - 08/29/07 10:17 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: mike m oz]
islandmon Offline
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Recalling the olden days when draftspeople ( like myself ) lacked sufficient energies to scribble tiny uniform curvy lines all over the place,
but instead opted for less cumbersome scratches & notations... now with powerful computers, plotters, and CAD software
it's possible to fill-up all the spaces between all the lines with all manner of sophisticated squigglys & stippling.
Planset Symbol Legends with a hundred or more 'typical' CAD generated hatched patterns
are fast becoming the accepted 'International Drafting 'Standard'.
Ironically, the Building Contractor still manages to make sense of it all with 4 or 5 colored Magic Markers ; )
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#87204 - 09/27/07 12:22 PM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
Chris D Offline
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I agree that wavy insulation should be a wall component. It would need to work with curved walls too.

We currently use two hatches for insulation - one for fibre insulants and one for foam insulants:







Edited by Chris D (09/27/07 04:05 PM)
Edit Reason: image links corrected
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#87303 - 09/28/07 06:35 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Chris D]
islandmon Offline
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Chris D, that's the way to do it.. simple and to the point. For detail work "wavy' is mandatory.

 Quote:
Ironically, the Building Contractor still manages to make sense of it all with 4 or 5 colored Magic Markers ; )


This actually happened last Sunday at our community beach party:
While chatting with a Contractor, he began to rant about the varying standards Architects use to draw plans.
Then, he asked me...seriously... if it was possible for plans to be created with the color overlays on the walls so that he would not have to continue doing it with his colored markers ; )

Of course, I reminded him that since all my plans are in full color PDF viewable at 1600% zoom and published to our servers this is not an issue for our clients.
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#87304 - 09/28/07 06:50 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: islandmon]
Petri Offline
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Well, well, well.. My experience (reported earlier here) is exactly the same.

OK. This is what I did: bought an inexpensive (in the scale of things) roll-feed large-format printer (A1-width) and boxes of cheap bond paper. All tendering sets & all site sets were printed in colour. Everyone was happy! (Especially the bloke who supplied ink cartridges.)

The cost? Well, in proportion & in the overall scheme of things: nothing. I saved tens of hours of tedious work in every job and tens of hours of time spent on the phone trying to explain things to chippies and painters.
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#87305 - 09/28/07 07:03 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Petri]
Christiaan Offline
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We use colour in our planning drawings, but our construction drawings are black and white. One reason being the ability to photocopy and not lose any fidelity.
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#87307 - 09/28/07 07:27 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
Petri Offline
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You don't have colour copiers in the UK? You can't afford a 2000 € colour printer and the whole nine yards of paper? Excuses, excuses... C'mon!

If anything, the move to colour gives your firm more control. Imagine this: no more obsolete, superseded drawings in circulation or when there are, you can immediately recognize them. (Well, almost. There can still be prints of the previous issue, but at least not photocopies.)

All Contract Documents, including revisions, are supplied by the Architect either as prints or as protected PDF-files. Photocopies, facsimiles or other reprodutions of the Architect's drawings are not considered as valid documents in case of a dispute.
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#87311 - 09/28/07 08:35 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
Chris D Offline
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We work exactly the same way as Christiaan - must be a UK thing - planning drawings in colour, construction drawings in greyscale. Printing is mostly outsourced to a local repro firm, and colour prints cost 10 times what greyscale prints cost

Just to bring the discussion back to insulation hatches - the hatches we use are designed to print well in all situations: colour, greyscale and mono:


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#87314 - 09/28/07 08:51 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Chris D]
Petri Offline
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Loc: Helsinki, Finland
I'm sure you do. It's not just a UK thing.

The conventions in question are in fact quite recent. Blueprint-dyeline -era stuff, for the time being still upheld by the outdated technology of photocopies.

Before blueprints etc., architects prepared drawing sets by hand, in colour. Red for brick, grey for stone, sand for timber etc. Absolutely beewdiful!

As we are moving from drawings to models and have a realistic possibility of better communication in colour (hard-copies & electronic), I can't see the point of improving VW's capabilities of implementing soon-to-be-obsolete draughting conventions.

Just take your protein pills and put your helmet on. There's nothing you can do, Major Chris!

EDIT
But of course there are plenty of draughting programs available. Like AutoCAD.


Edited by Petri (09/28/07 08:54 AM)
Edit Reason: Sarcasm added
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#87318 - 09/28/07 09:08 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Petri]
mike m oz Offline

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Posts: 3767
Loc: Australia
I don't think there is a problem with having the insulation represented like Chris has in his two examples. He has raised a valid point though. For a wave line cavity fill to be useful it would need to work in both straight and round walls.

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#87324 - 09/28/07 10:02 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: mike m oz]
Petri Offline
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Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Actually, the practical maths is quite complex. In the 20 years today since Sgt. Rich taught us to CAD, we have only seen a poor substitute.

Your Worship: I humbly submit, if I may, that the requirement to represent, redundantly, as the many eminently qualified witnesses for Defence have more than amply and adequately demonstrated, I believe to the Court's full satisfaction, the requirement to explicitly and in full accordance of the current, albeit in many ways outdated and therefore perhaps not quite relevant - as several witnesses have testified on the basis of a large number of successful projects without any contractual problems that might have come to the attention of Her Majesty or her most respected Judicial System, so accurately described as Justice, Your Worship - standards, any and all insulation in the so-called drawings, be they plans, sections or details, whilst the written, hence surely, notwihstanding the particular details of the Contract, less ambiguous and therefore having the primacy when considering the respective status of the documents of the Contract in question; the existence and extent my client does no contest while strongly contesting the Plaintiff's interpretation of certain, but hereby not necessarily acknowledged, Letters of Exchange & Correspondence, which may or may not include telephone conversations, some of which may or may not have been carried out using, in one end or the other, one of these so-called mobile phones, and testimonials presented to the pleasure of this Court of Justice and to be perused by my most learned colleague, acting in an admirable way for the respected Plaintiff, whose integrity as such is beyond questioning or doubt, but who, on this occasion, seems to have received poor advise.
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#87326 - 09/28/07 10:34 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Petri]
Christiaan Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 6027
Loc: London
 Originally Posted By: Petri
As we are moving from drawings to models and have a realistic possibility of better communication in colour (hard-copies & electronic), I can't see the point of improving VW's capabilities of implementing soon-to-be-obsolete draughting conventions.

I'm partial to this argument, except I'm dubious about how soon "soon-to-be-obsolete" is, at least in the UK.
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#87329 - 09/28/07 10:47 AM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Christiaan]
Petri Offline
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Registered: 05/21/00
Posts: 2038
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Fair enough.

In 2 to 4 years, only trowel-and-hammer contractors do not have computers. Meanwhile, the onus of printing sets of drawings will be transferred - quite justly, if I may say - to the Contractor. Any Contractor worth his salt will have the software and hardware to deal with digital data in colour.

(I exclude the U.S. of A. and North Korea from this prediction.)
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#87374 - 09/28/07 04:39 PM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Petri]
islandmon Offline
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 3375
Loc: California
Rumpole of The Bailey... your submittal to the High Court... although brilliant and flawlessly argued .. is rejected for lack of sufficient jurisdiction in this matter.

 Quote:
Any Contractor worth his salt will have the software and hardware to deal with digital data in colour.

So true ...
My Contractors color print the details off the server and post them at the work areas... taped to the walls. The Guys really like to work this way... feels more personal & interactive...especially when isometrics are involved.
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#152453 - 02/22/11 02:33 PM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Chris D]
Cadplan Offline
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Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 244
Loc: North Somerset
Hi Chris can you tell me how you made your wall style please? the one with the individual blocks and bricks shown.
Do you have a download?

Cheers

AJ
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#160308 - 09/16/11 06:29 PM Re: Wavy insulation component in wall tool [Re: Cadplan]
Christiaan Offline
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Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 6027
Loc: London
Wavy insulation arrives in v2012, by way of attaching batts to walls or using tile fills to your wall components, the later of which works like a gem, including in curved walls! smile

Is VW one the first to achieve this?
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