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#72850 - 01/23/07 03:20 AM Vectorworks Price
Anonymous
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Maybe I am going to get into real trouble for this but here goes anyway.
How come here in Australia to purchase say Vectorworks Fundamentals is $2036.10 AU including GST and $1851.00 AU excluding GST. If I lived in the US I could purchase Vectorworks Fundamentals for $995.00 US which given today's currency exchange rates is $1261.13 AU?
That is a big difference Australians are paying - even without the GST the difference is $589.87 AU and with it $$775.00 AU.

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#72851 - 01/23/07 03:37 AM Re: Vectorworks Price
michael john williams Offline
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Well according to latest reports from NNA they only have 25% of the north american market and 40% of the asia market.

Market forces mean to get a bigger share of the US then they have to be cheaper in the US.
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#72852 - 01/23/07 04:59 AM Re: Vectorworks Price
Petri Offline
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Quote:


That is a big difference Australians are paying - even without the GST the difference is $589.87 AU and with it $$775.00 AU.




What's the point in comparing prices with GST (VAT for most people here)? If you buy VW for a business, you get the GST back.

I'd imagine each distributor charges what they consider (a) reasonable and (b) acceptable.

National distributors, including OzCAD, mostly sell a relatively small number of licences and still have to have tech support, do marketing etc., whereas in the U.S.A. NNA handles all this. Obviously in matters like this, the economies of scale start to work.

I would not like a situation where a key part of my income-generating business infrastructure would not have any local expertise and support. No-one in the other end would know what a millimetre is...

The cost of ownership of VW is anyway very low - almost insignificant. Let's consider the first 5-6 years:

Initial purchase 1850
3 upgrades (eg) 1410
Total 3260

In these 5-6 years an average professional does something like 8000-9600 hours of actual work (1600 hrs/year), so it is 30-40 cents per hour. Let's say $3 per day, tax deductible. Most of us spend more on coffee...

EDIT
The upgrades are assumed to be released at 18 month intervals. How long they actually "last", depends on when in the release cycle you buy the initial licence. If immediately after releae, the 6 years & ¢30 per hour (¢33 to be exact) applies.


Edited by Petri (01/23/07 05:06 AM)
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#72853 - 01/23/07 10:25 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
Anonymous
Unregistered


In Australia, you are also getting a number of localized add-ons when you purchase the product.

The best thing to do is to pose the question to your local distributor.

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#72854 - 01/23/07 10:36 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: ]
Petri Offline
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And what will the local distributor say? That they pretty much pay the US retail price...

OzCAD does not, as far as know, give localised add-ons with Fundamentals, but perhaps you pose this question to Julian.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
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#72855 - 01/23/07 03:59 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
jan15 Offline
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25% of the North American market???

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#72856 - 01/25/07 07:06 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
michael john williams Offline
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Interesting note in the upfrontezine cad newsletter today - a reply from VectorWorks CEO on comments made in the last issue when commenting on the Nemetschek/Graphisoft takeover that VW is principally an 'Affordable and American' product... he comments,

"VectorWorks is sold broadly around the world: 40% of our customers are in the Asia/Pacific region, 35% in Europe, and 25% in North America. Although we are proud of our success here in the North American market, I think saying that your positioning us as 'Affordable and American' may oversimplify things a bit."
- Sean Flaherty, ceo
Nemetschek North America
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#72857 - 01/26/07 01:27 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
jan15 Offline
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That is interesting. I would have thought more than 25 percent of the VW user base is in North America. In fact, I would have done the same as the upFront writer and guessed that nearly all of the user base is in North America.

Do you have a link to that newsletter? The last one I can find is #501, dated January 16, 2006 (but obviously meaning 2007). When I click on "Next Issue" I get a "Not Found" message.

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#72858 - 01/26/07 02:50 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
mike m oz Offline

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Loc: Australia
Jan15 - that is why we non North American users sometimes show our frustration about the NNA focus on North American housing capabilities. With 3 out of every 4 users from outside of the US and Canada our needs should be better met.

There needs to be more effort put into providing non housing and international capability.

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#72859 - 01/26/07 05:02 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
Petri Offline
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"The Model T is available in any colour you want, as long as you want black"?
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#72860 - 01/26/07 01:34 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
jan15 Offline
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Mike, it's odd there would be so much emphasis on a small part of the user base. But is Asian/Pacific construction as standardized as North American? Do they build the same way in Mongolia and India and Australia? If not, there might not be a large enough group anywhere to support VW standard components.

Maybe we should be comparing the North American user base to Australia alone. How much of that 40% is Australia? It can't be much. Forty percent of 400,000 is 160,000 seats. That would be one seat for every 125 people in Austalia. If VW's popularity is the same in Australia as in North America, that would come to under 7,000 seats, which would explain the high per-seat price of the local add-ons.

The North American 25% is 100,000 users who share construction standards. That might be by far the largest such group of users. And it might be even higher if the Asia/Pacific 40% includes a lot of designers of the American-style houses in Japan that I keep hearing about.

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#72861 - 01/27/07 12:39 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
Petri Offline
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Jan,

It is of course true that the largest single market is the US. It is also true that architects are the largest single group of users, but in the 400,000 there are lots of others, too.

The situation is, however, that a national distributor has to first buy & sell the US-only content, then (as Katie repeatedly demands) create and sell the local content. Then either
- the distributor has to reconfigure the system, produce installation CD:s and write new documentation; or
- each user has to go through an extensive and complicated process of configuring his/her system to use the local content as default.

And so on.

There are more and more features that are tied to the "Industry Series", eg. wall styles. If an Australian or Finnish user needs wall styles, he or she has to pay for American content. If he or she wants to use the plant tool, the same. And so on.

I have no idea why the American distributor, NNA, can't follow its own advice and localise the product, then sell the localised version at a higher price.

In short: we need the functionality but do not want to pay for the American the content. Also the priorities could be different as comes to development of new features.

If someone would design an "American style house" in Finland or Japan, the content would still be useless.
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#72862 - 01/28/07 02:21 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
mclaugh Offline
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Registered: 07/30/04
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Quote:

Well according to latest reports from NNA they only have 25% of the north american market and 40% of the asia market.





Um ... you might want to look at the quote again, because that's not what NNA claims:

Quote:

VectorWorks is sold broadly around the world: 40% of our customers are in the Asia/Pacific region, 35% in Europe, and 25% in North America.


[emphasis mine]

The quote gives a regional breakdown of NNA's customer base; it does NOT make any claim about NNA's marketshare. The fact that 25% of NNA's customer base is in North America says nothing about the size of the North American marketplace or what percentage of the North American market those customers represent.

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#72863 - 01/28/07 03:03 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mclaugh]
quigley Offline
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Getting back to the original question regarding price....

Usually a software company sets a local RRP in each sector. That it sells for a certain price is set by NNA. Soaftware is always cheaper in the USA. Other territories vary but generally EEC and UK are regarded as most as being the highest prices.

For example.

If I want to buy a seat of SolidWorks in the USA it starts at $3995. In the UK it is £3995 - effectively double the price. I am amazed that in the EEC and UK there has not been investigations into price fixing by the European Union. All the main MCAD vendors do this - Autodesk, Dassault, UGS, PTC etc. Personally I am sick of gettign emails from news sites in the USA offering me XYZ software for a dollar price ....only to find I am unable to purchase it in the UK for anything near that price.

Some vendors do offer a worldwide price - good on them. Think 3, Ashlar, IronCAD to name a few.

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#72864 - 01/29/07 02:15 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: quigley]
Anonymous
Unregistered


The question of Vectorworks price difference here in Australia came about in a roundabout fashion. A close friend here in Australia is studying Landscape Architecture. He is a mature age student and moving through third year has had excellent results and even won some awards for his work.
I use Vectorworks so we inquired here in Australia about a student license for him. I was told the Vectorworks student version was a certain price and my friend of course went on line to compare prices from the USA etc and discovered it was cheaper there. The student version has a limitation in that it prints with a watermark and therefore is useless to him as he wanted to use it for his work. Currently he uses AutoCAD, 3D Max, Illustrator and the like. He then looked into other prices from around the world and therefore I posted this thread.

I have to say – I am not in any way being critical of OzCAD and their pricing policy. Julian has helped me enormously with his support here in Australia. His support is always excellent and he really goes the extra mile. Also I have told him my belief is even at the price level it is here – Vectorworks is still damn cheap software. I just found it interesting that in different parts of the world the price can very so much.

The student version printing with a watermark – I do not know what other software companies do with theirs. Both my friend and I have been really disappointed the student version was useless to him as it printed with a watermark – how could he use it for presentations and the like? We understand others use student versions professionally and that robs software companies and their distributors but were prepared to give written assurances and guarantees to offset that.

I use Vectorworks and love the software – I still think it is cheap – especially in the USA. It would have been good if my friend could have used it especially because his work is excellent and if he wins another award for a Studio he is currently doing – just would have been great if it had been done in Vectorworks for all to see.

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#72865 - 01/29/07 06:35 PM Re: Vectorworks Price
mclaugh Offline
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Registered: 07/30/04
Posts: 123
Quote:

The student version has a limitation in that it prints with a watermark and therefore is useless to him as he wanted to use it for his work.




Are you sure your information is current?

According to the academic FAQ:

Quote:


Q: Will printed drawings contain banners or watermarks?
A: Our educational licenses do not contain banners or watermarks.





Maybe it's one of those "localized add-ons" Katie referred to that y'all are paying extra for?

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#72866 - 01/30/07 02:59 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mclaugh]
Anonymous
Unregistered


We did get told here in Oz about the water mark when printing from the student version - perhaps it is an Aussie thing.
Please be aware I do not think given our smaller user base here we are being treated poorly re price. OzCAD over here is excellent and as I have said I still think VW is damn cheap.
I will send Julian an email and ask but here in Australia he may have his reasons for having the software that way and if so that is up to him.

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#72867 - 01/30/07 06:29 AM Re: Vectorworks Price
Petri Offline
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Well, you started this, Darrel. There was nothing "roundabout" about it. I'm yet to see the Uni tutor or professor who rejects a student project if it has some watermarks.

Quote:

The student version has a limitation in that it prints with a watermark and therefore is useless to him as he wanted to use it for his work.




Nonsense. Unless "work" means something else than Uni projects.

However, if those watermarks are a fact, perhaps NNA should take a leaf from the book of another Nemetschek company: ArchiCAD's educational version files cannot be opened in the commercial version and vice versa.

Considering the fact that large, famous and successful architectural practices in Australia are running only educational versions of AutoCAD (BYO - bringing your own - is a condition of employment), any talk about some assurances is, I'm afraid, a bit limp.

And the less famous ones - those who don't attract any students? Well, during my most recent stop-over in Singapore I found out where they obviously get their CAD-software from.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
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#72868 - 01/30/07 03:03 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Petri,
"I'm yet to see the Uni tutor or professor who rejects a student project if it has some watermarks"

Seven Sheets mostly A1 I think all colored up and pretty – printed at the printers – would have looked great with a big WATERMARK through it –

"Nonsense. Unless "work" means something else than Uni projects"

See above and he does not work at all!!

"any talk about some assurances is, I'm afraid, a bit limp"

I think when purchasing the student version written assurances are required. Have a look at the downloadable pdf.

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#72869 - 01/30/07 03:09 PM Re: Vectorworks Price
Anonymous
Unregistered


I don't believe the watermark goes across the whole page. I think it's rather small and off the main portion of the drawing. Check with the distributor, just to make sure.

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#72870 - 01/30/07 03:57 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: ]
propstuff Offline
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Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
this quote diredct from OzCad site:

" Drawings created with the student version will print with an outline education watermark across the top and bottom of the drawing, even if printed from a full business version of VectorWorks."

Seems pretty clear to me.
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#72871 - 01/31/07 12:31 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: propstuff]
Petri Offline
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I wonder if there still are larger paper sizes available in Australia. Then one could perhaps apply the age-old art of trimming to the tops & bottoms of the drawings.
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#72872 - 01/31/07 03:12 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Petri,
Now that is an idea - just stop using A4s from the Epson Stylus - that may solve the problem.
And print an A1 on A0 and trim away - now that is an even better idea - what would we call this a CAD work around.

You know I find your comments and contributions sometimes to be really helpful, sometimes generous, on other occasions fun and quite clever but on other occasions just full of - how do you say it in Europe? - shizen housen.

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#72873 - 01/31/07 04:33 AM Re: Vectorworks Price
Petri Offline
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Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Well, be that is it may. The fact & reality is that educational pricing is so widely misused that software firms must to something about it.

I have lately even started to like dongles: I hear that VW sales have doubled in many countries where dongles have been introduced.

You can surely come up with a suitable Aussie description for demanding special treatment based on some "written assurances". It might relate to Bovine excrement.

And while you are at it, get a book on geography: quite a few languages are spoken in Europe.

'Ava good day and please do not read my comments if you don't like them. At least I won't read any of yours.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
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#72874 - 02/02/07 01:13 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
michael john williams Offline
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I just want to add that I do not think VW is cheap. I do not want NNA to get the wrong message. It might be competitive but it certainly is not cheap - it is the most expensive bit of software we use and we have to pay for an upgrade every year or two for each pc.

VW 12.5 Designer / RW is about £1,600 plus VAT in the UK.

Now that is a lot of money to spend every two years on each machine.

And there are very little local add ons here in the UK.

I could get autoCADlight for about £610 and sketchup for free.
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#72875 - 02/02/07 02:07 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
Petri Offline
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Why would you buy a new licence every two years? Anyway, see my calculation of the hourly cost above.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
- George Bernard Shaw

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#72876 - 02/02/07 02:12 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
jan15 Offline
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Of course, you wouldn't be able to use the SketchUp in your office, since it's free for non-commercial use only.

But if you were really contemplating using Autocad LT, you could instead buy BricsCad (which supports Lisp and 3D) for £114 and save more than enough to buy SketchUp Pro.

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#72877 - 02/02/07 07:29 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
dontevenjoke Offline
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Petri is a rude man
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#72878 - 02/03/07 03:11 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: dontevenjoke]
michael john williams Offline
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You do not need to buy a new licence every two years but you do need to regularly upgrade and there are costs associated with that. So CAD is not a one off cost but a regular annual cost which is not tax deductable, it is an actual cost which comes out of your profits. In the UK you can only claim the VAT back if you are VAT registered.

All I am saying is that vw is not cheap but it is competitive and rightly so. But it has to add value and there has to be a real reason for each upgrade that makes it attractive.

For instance, what has 12.5.1 given? I have posted this on other threads and still no one answers and it seems to be giving more problems than it resolves.

Remeber, there is always competition. Sketch up is cheaper, selling quicker and catching up!
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#72879 - 02/03/07 03:57 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
Petri Offline
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Michael,

You are of course right in almost every respect. However, you can't compare VW with either AutoCAD LT or SketchUp - or their combo.

AutoCAD LT is a drafting program. SketchUp is a conceptual visualising program. Neither can do real 3D-modeling, scheduling and so on nor do they have parametric objects. Etc.

If one does not require any of the advanced capabilities of VW (which I can very well understand), then of course there are alternatives, of which AutoCAD is the most expensive.

As comes to VW price in the UK, a firm called CAD Shop seems to sell VW Architect for £900. Fundamentals (which would be more comparable with AutoCAD LT, but much more capable) is £675. Renderworks seems to add some £270.

Finally, why wouldn't CAD-software be tax deductible - is this a UK peculiarity? And aren't professional users usually VAT (or GST or whatever) registered.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
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#72880 - 02/03/07 06:32 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
alanmac Offline
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Of course CAD software and any upgrades purchased is tax deductible in the UK.

Sounds like you need to get yourself another Accountant.

You don't even need to upgrade if you don't want to. I don't think that is the case with Autodesk's products though. Don't you have to upgrade to maintain support with Autocad?

Of course you'll not have the functionality of the latest version should you decide not to upgrade, just the one you decided to stay at, which at the time of purchase surely met your needs.

I've remained at the versions you see at the bottom because the Fundamentals version I use has not included the items I'd maybe use in that level of the upgrade.

As Petri briefly touched on, it depends what you want from the software you use.

If you are not going to do the work that the program is capable of doing and use it to its fullest then sure, use something else much cheaper that will be sufficient for your needs.

As somebody pointed out Google SketchUp is only free if used for none commercial use.


Alan
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#72881 - 02/03/07 07:07 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: alanmac]
Petri Offline
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Posts: 2038
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:

Of course you'll not have the functionality of the latest version should you decide not to upgrade, just the one you decided to stay at, which at the time of purchase surely met your needs.




Exactly. I use Microsoft Office X, FileMaker Pro 6, Photoshop Elements 2, Dreamweaver 3 and so on. My needs have not changed so much that I could justify the upgrades. (Which, mind you, in some cases mean buying an entirely new licence!)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understand that you get even official support (if any) for VW pretty much regardless of the version. At least plenty of unofficial support.

When you finally decide to upgrade, you pay also for the "missed steps", which IMABHO is quite proper.

Hey, you didn't contribute to the development costs of features A, B and C. You now want feature D, which may (or may not) have parts created in A, B or C. Sorree...


Edited by Petri (02/03/07 07:11 AM)
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
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#72882 - 02/07/07 03:00 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
michael john williams Offline
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There is an interesting debate going on the RIBA architects site in the UK comparing the best CAD software, and one thing that I did not fully appreciate is that VW is not seen as 3D CAD and so obviously needs to be cheaper!

But I had always it as 3D, what do you think?

This is what was said and if anyone can give me stuff to fight the VW case then please reply:

Vectorworks will continue to be successful, but IMHO it is a 2D product with 3D add-ons rather than a true 3D product - although maybe that in the end does not matter?

Applecore reckon they are seeing VW users fed up with the direction VW is taking and switching to Archicad to get 'proper' 3D - but then they would say that, wouldn't they ;-)

An interesting quote from a Nemetschek person contained in an article,
http://www10.aeccafe.com/nbc/articles/view_weekly.php?articleid=345853




'At the moment, we believe there are four important CAD platforms on the AEC market. Three of these come from Nemetschek -- Allplan, Archicad and Vectorworks.'



Long time cad commentator Ralph Grabowski's thoughts on this are that the 4th is Revit, and that it is fear of Revit that drove the Nemetschek takeover of Graphisoft (although it seemed to me that the whole thing was long planned).
http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/blog/2007/02/susan_smith_on_.html

If Mr Grabowski with all his inside contacts reckons that Revit really is selling very well, then it probably is so.


The AEC 3D market is wide open for Autodesk to 'own' it completely - despite being as unpopular as the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation* ;-)
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#72883 - 02/07/07 05:11 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: michael john williams]
Petri Offline
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Posts: 2038
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:

This is what was said and if anyone can give me stuff to Vectorworks will continue to be successful, but IMHO it is a 2D product with 3D add-ons rather than a true 3D product - although maybe that in the end does not matter?




It does matter. Now, this forum is not the ideal place for any theoretical discourse, because Australian draftsmen & builders abuse (with a totally unfriendly and non-professional tone) anyone with any interest or knowledge on theoretical matters, but in short:

Drawings will always be needed. Even the best model cannot contain or display in a useful fashion everything that is needed on the site.

It is rather pointless to model every stud, purlin, batten, piece of corrugated metal, tile and so on. Even if one would do it, the resulting projections of the 3D-model would be less useful than drawings that can show - in a symbolic or generalised way - combinations of components that actually do not exist.

Let's consider even the floorplan. The horizontal sectioning cannot always (if ever) be defined as a plane. We need to be able to show things that are above the notional plane or obscured by something that is below it.

So, what matters is the ability to mix 2D and 3D work in a sensible (and intuitive) way.

My counterquestion would be: what is it that one can't model in 3D with VW? Yes, there are various kinds of objects and certain styles of architecture which are difficult, if not impossible, but I would say that 90% world's new buildings can be designed, modeled and documented entirely with VW.

No, I would not recommend VW to a budding Hadid, Gehry, Calatrava, Makovecz, Pietilä or Aalto. It is not the ideal tool for glass sausages or blobs either. But for the rest of us, it's pretty good.
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#72884 - 02/07/07 10:18 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
jan15 Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: New Jersey
Quote:

Drawings will always be needed. Even the best model cannot contain or display in a useful fashion everything that is needed on the site.

It is rather pointless to model every stud, purlin, batten, piece of corrugated metal, tile and so on. Even if one would do it, the resulting projections of the 3D-model would be less useful than drawings that can show - in a symbolic or generalised way - combinations of components that actually do not exist.



Your comment shows a depth of ignorance and depravity found only in people whose names begin with P. It's no wonder the Australians always abuse you. And the Californians, North Carolinians, etc. (just kidding).

But seriously: I disagree. I think that's exactly where CAD is headed – no drawings, only a virtual model, including not only every stud but every nail, pipe, and wire. CAD software would do some of the virtual construction, with options to set the stud spacing and size and to override the default framing pattern in a particular location. Builders would use viewing software that can walk around the model, or crawl around in pipe chases, and show any view at any level of detail, with automatic dimensioning. It would show the quantity of any selected element, in the whole model or in a selected part of it. Moving around in the model would be easier than moving around a Sketchup model is now; but the model would be intelligent and refined – qualities which you can never aspire to (just kidding).

I wouldn't want to guess how soon we'll get there, or whether global warming or nuclear holocaust will kill us all first, but present trends in hardware and software suggest something along those lines. Even now, the only reason to produce 2D drawings is to show builders what we've got in the 3D model. And the only reason we need to do that is that the model isn't complete, as you said. Progress in software and increasing computer literacy rates will soon allow builders to look inside the model, and ongoing increases in the number of gigabytes that can dance on the head of a pin will eventually allow the model to be as detailed as necessary. Of course, in Finland they'll still be building from sketches drawn in the mud with a stick (just kidding).

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#72885 - 02/07/07 11:39 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
Petri Offline
2000 Club

Registered: 05/21/00
Posts: 2038
Loc: Helsinki, Finland
Quote:

But seriously: I disagree. I think that's exactly where CAD is headed – no drawings, only a virtual model, including not only every stud but every nail, pipe, and wire.




Maybe headed, but will it ever get there? Will we one day see the True Blue Aussie Chippie changing The Model after he has "adjusted" the location & dimensions of a wall?

The truly big problem with BIM-approach will, for a very long time at least, be modifications, reuse/recycling and the like. I very much doubt that the proud owner of a McMansion in Maryland will maintain an accurate as-built model of his or her house. Not even large corporations or Government bodies will do it.

OK, "always" is also a very long time, but in the foreseeable future drawings will certainly be used as a means of communication.

Choosing software today should consider tomorrow, not next year. When drawings have become obsolete, there won't be any VectorWorks, ArchiCAD, Revit or Allplan.
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#72886 - 02/07/07 12:18 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
Don Berinati Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 86
Loc: Reno, NV/Bridgeport CA
I'm a small designer/builder and just want to throw in my two cents. VW works fine for me, as I use modeling to help clients visualize, do not show every construction detail in them (I can build it in the time it would take me to draw it and why insult the pros on my crew or my subs?), then switch the 3d to 2d for construction drawings, which are aimed squarely at the building department in order to get permitted, and nothing further.
I realize I work in a niche, but just want to let people know we are out there, using VW as a tool and not an end in itself. For what I use it for, it's more than adequate.
DonB
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#72887 - 02/07/07 12:45 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
P Retondo Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1509
Loc: CA
Quote:

No, I would not recommend VW to a budding Hadid, Gehry, Calatrava, Makovecz, Pietilä or Aalto. It is not the ideal tool for glass sausages or blobs either. But for the rest of us, it's pretty good.




Petri, though not as sophisitcated as CATIA (at 20x or more the price), VW is distinguished from AutoCAD and ArchiCAD in that it does have NURBS capability. (I don't know enough about Allplan or Revit to comment on them). So, in that you refer to "budding" free-form architects, VW is maybe the only way they could afford to go. I've scanned freeform models, converted them to NURBS objects and imported into VW - exactly the process that Gehry started with in designing the Bilbao Guggenheim.

But I do agree emphatically with your main point, that the hybrid 2d/3d interface is crucial to the success of 3d modeling, and the main strength of VW - though NNA sometimes don't seem to appreciate that, as they keep ignoring my suggestion that the 2d root objects of extrudes need to move in lockstep with the object itself so that they can remained registered with respect to the drawing origin.

I think other improvements could be made in this direction. For example, some of the objects you refer to as wanting to include in plan (e.g., skylight locations) could be built into the program in the way that walls were from day 1. To follow the example, we could have a hybrid Ceiling object that could be viewed as a dotted outline 3d in the plan view (and as a solid for reflected ceiling plan).

I think you're also absolutely right that we will always need to add simple 2d annotations when the odd situation demands it. We'd never meet deadlines if that couldn't be done, and the new Viewport object supports that workflow technique beautifully.

I also have a hunch that Michael's comment re: Nemetschek's position vis a vis Revit is right on point. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop regarding the Graphisoft acquisition. I can't see Nemetshek's engineering resources continuing an inefficient effort to serve separate enterprises when Revit threatens market hegemony.
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#83603 - 08/05/07 05:43 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: P Retondo]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
I am from Australia. We were considering Vectorworks as a companion product to Sketchup. The price for Vectorworks Architect 12.5 here is VERY ambitious. Some 70% more than the USA. Upgrades are similarly ambitious.

We asked the Australian distributor why and were told '...it's expensive doing business in Australia." Mindscape don't think so, Turbocad is actually cheaper here for TurboCAD than in the USA. In real terms most Architectural CAD costs the same.

Accordingly Vectorworks is now off our list. Pity really because the package looked complete and robust.

Perhaps the free trade agreement between Australia and the USA has escaped Ozcad's and Nemetschek's attention.

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#83606 - 08/05/07 06:39 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: digby dart]
dontevenjoke Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 148
Loc: NSW, Australia
I have VW Australia and New Zealand and I think it's gret value. The Heliodon tool for sun studies is great, and Windoor, it worth it's weight in gold. We also get Custom colour which has all Australian paint company colours. Plus the exchange rate is a bit of a cripple.
We just need Animation Works thrown in...
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#83607 - 08/05/07 07:09 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: dontevenjoke]
DDDesign Offline
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 218
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Surely the comparison between Australian and US price is irrelevant. What's important is what you get for your $A, is it value for money? And compare it to to the alternative - also priced in $A.
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#83611 - 08/05/07 08:21 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: dontevenjoke]
Dieter @ DWorks Offline
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Belgium - Gent
In every country the price is different, and the main raisen for this is that the distributing company mostly add tools and pios to the package.
But sometimes they drive the price to high
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#83634 - 08/06/07 12:27 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: dontevenjoke]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
I admire your enthusiasm and loyalty to the Australian distributor, but with the current 0.84c credit card exchange rate and Australian GST taken into account buying direct from the USA would be AU$1,818.56.

OzCAD in Australia charge AU$3,184.50. Thats AU$$1,365.94 more. Hardly great value for a few compulsory add-ons.

If OzCAD sold it in the USA it would equate to US$2,418.37. Rest assured US sales would be well down. Arris and DataCAD would be happy.

Has anyone here from Australia purchased Vectorworks Architect direct from the USA. Any problems with upgrades from Nemetschek thereafter?

Thanks




Edited by digby dart (08/06/07 12:29 AM)

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#83994 - 08/14/07 06:51 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Petri]
mralistair Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 99
michael.. the difference between '25% of the NA marcket' and '25% of our sales' is a huge one.

but interesting points.

we pay approx £600 for 'second user' license and £900 for the first license (approx $1200 and £1800 US$)

which is cheap compared to acad etc... but the price is simply down to how much we will pay.. and since on a mac there is little option i cant see them cutting it soon.

plus MS Office is £300, and their economy of scale must be massive.
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#84148 - 08/16/07 09:53 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mralistair]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
Hello Again,

Since last posting here some 10 days ago we have done a fair bit of research on other Architectural Cad software available to us both here in Australia and in the USA.

For what its worth we were pretty unanimous that Vectorworks represents great value and is clearly a class leader in the USA. US$1295 for Vectorworks Architect on Amazon from Nemetschek North America direct represents excellent value.

In Australia Vectorworks Architect is trying to compete with higher specified Architectural Cad. Most notable is that offered by the parent company Nemetschek Allplan. In Australia for around AU$4000 Vectorworks Architect with Renderworks is competing with Allplan 300 Architecture.

For around AU$5000 Vectorworks Designer with Renderworks starts to edge towards Allplan 500 Architecture and Archicad. Both Allpan and Archicad are Bim's. A different league of Architectural Cad.

There are other products we compared but I merely wish to show here the variance in Australian prices for products owned by the same parent company - Nemetschek.

We were pleasantly surprised to see the level of Allplan technology appearing in Vectorworks which further increased the value for money aspect of Vectorworks Architect in the USA. Not so in Australia with Vectorworks Architect being priced comparably with Allplan 300 Architect.

Simply put: In the USA Vectorworks Architect with Renderworks is half the price of Allplan 300 Architecture. In Australia they are priced about the same. It would seem prudent to go with Allplan or one of its direct class competitors.

I returned to post this here because I am indebted to all the forum posts for information on Vectorworks and wish to give some knowledge back which may be of some use. Reading the many honest appraisals has been invaluable. Amazing product for the money... in the USA.



Edited by digby dart (08/16/07 09:56 AM)

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#84211 - 08/16/07 07:01 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: digby dart]
Danielj1 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/06/00
Posts: 109
Loc: Santa Monica, CA, USA
You can't compare the Australian and US versions of VectorWorks, because the Australian version has tons more content, tools, and localized stuff that doesn't exist in the US version, as well as a local distributor who provides intense and high-quality tech support. If you're going to compare to Allplan (or any others) you'd need to make a direct comparison of the specific content and capabilities of the two--including your localized versions. Using the US version as a reference will lead you astray in your price calculations.

Dan J.

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#84263 - 08/17/07 07:49 PM I got ripped off [Re: Danielj1]
Susan Shaw Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 5
I bought Vectorworks Architect after I finished Uni. I didn't know it then but I got ripped off big time. I am pretty cross about that now and I am not the only one. I like the software but the extra stuff you get in Australia is no big deal. I wouldn't pay for it. What really creeps me - ozcad is still doing it cos you have to buy from them.

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#84265 - 08/17/07 08:11 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Susan,
The best advice I can tell you is to contact your local distributor and discuss this topic with them directly.

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#84269 - 08/18/07 01:54 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
propstuff Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
I bought Vectorworks Architect after I finished Uni. I didn't know it then but I got ripped off big time. I am pretty cross about that now and I am not the only one. I like the software but the extra stuff you get in Australia is no big deal. I wouldn't pay for it. What really creeps me - ozcad is still doing it cos you have to buy from them.

Susan,
By making perjorative claims like you "got ripped off" and "What really creeps me - ozcad is still doing it"; you (and the others who feel the same) are missing a fundamental reality of business.

The actual price of any product is bound by 2 things:
1/The cost of providing the product for sale, and
2/What the market will pay for it.
(the 2 do not necessarily have any relationship)

You seem to think that Ozcad is using a "monopoly" dealership, or deceiving you in some way, and excessively inflating the price in order to make an "excessive" profit. (see item 2 above)

As others have pointed out; the reality is far more likely to be related to item 1

The cost of any product in one country does not define the final cost in another, except insofar as it is (just) one of the business input costs for the distributor.
This is just as true for selling imported software in this country as it is for selling Holdens to the US or Saudi Arabia.

More to the point; as has been pointed out previously, the cost of the software to the business is less than AU 0.50c / hour. If you were to pay "parity" with the US that figure would be perhaps AU 0.35c/ hour.
For a "typical" proffessional charge-out rate of between $60-120/hour, the 15c /hour you claimed to have been "ripped off" is meaningless.
The cost to the business of our primary tool for generating income is less than the cost of leasing the office photocopier, and the daily cost of the software is about the same as buying a cup of coffe at the local deli.

That's hardly a ripoff Susan. ;-)

N.


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#84270 - 08/18/07 04:16 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: propstuff]
Dieter @ DWorks Offline
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Belgium - Gent
It's normal that you pay more if they added a lot of extra tools. But I am still dissapointed by the way those tools get updated every version: they don't. So all the bugs that where in earlier versions are still there! That's a real shame. If they ask more, thy should also update their tools.
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#84271 - 08/18/07 06:43 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Dieter @ DWorks]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
While Nicholas concentrates his harsh attack on poor Susan I think it wise to return to the original thread.

Ozcad should sell vectorworks in its original flavours for comparable price to that in the USA. Make the extras optional.

If not Australian buyers should be able to buy from Nemetschek USA direct.

Australians had the same problem with music CD's until parallel importing was allowed. The arguments were the same. I thought legislation had fixed this for similar overseas intellectual property issues - perhaps not. For anyone interested The Australian Competition and Consumer Commission would know.

Meanwhile Nicholas leave Susan alone. She has a right to express her opinion without you playing Master of Business Administration.

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#84273 - 08/18/07 08:38 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: digby dart]
propstuff Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
I'm sorry you thought I was being harsh Digby, that was not my intention. -Nor was I calling anyone names.
What I was pointing out was that the economic viability of the US manufacturer selling direct to the US market are not the same as a local distributor selling to a small market like Australia.

This is not an attack. It is a simple reality.

To accuse Ozcad of a "Ripoff" may be an "opinion", but in my opinion (which I asume I also have a right to express), she -and you- are missing a vital point.

There is a reason for the difference in the AU and US price.

That is: It costs more to buy a license in Australia because it costs more per license to supply it to you in Australia.
There is nothing unique to VW or Australia or Ozcad in this; it is a universal characteristic of global trade. Prices vary for the "same" goods all over the world.

You may want NNA to sell direct from the maker, and not have any local support or representation; -many software companies trade in this way,... but that's a completely different argument from accusing Ozcad of "ripping people off big time" because of the economics of running a small business supplying services in a small market.

Who is making the "harsh attack" here?


Edited by propstuff (08/18/07 08:39 AM)
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#84277 - 08/18/07 10:45 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: propstuff]
Susan Shaw Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 5
Digby Dart you are indeed a gentleman. I shall ignore Nicholas forthwith. Thank you for your advise Katie but I have already contacted Ozcad. I contacted them after I found out the price difference between oz the US of A. I felt like a mouse phoning a mouse trap maker but these things must be done. Yes I was civil. The Ozcad lady was completely unrepentant listing off all the excuses mentioned here for why I paid twice as much as I should have. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Never mind Susan... live and learn. Maybe financially raped kinda sounds better than ripped off ! I guess when I have to upgrade though Ozcad its going to hurt more.

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#84281 - 08/18/07 06:01 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
propstuff Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
Maybe financially raped kinda sounds better than ripped off

Dear me!
Name calling again..........

Well, I won't upset you anymore.

Good luck in business!
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VW Des, RW 2011 sp3
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Win XP-SP something

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#84282 - 08/18/07 08:58 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: digby dart]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Digby - the Australian prices you are quoting include the 10% GST charged by the Australian government. If you are going to compare prices make sure you do it on an apples for apples basis.

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#84283 - 08/18/07 09:18 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
dontevenjoke Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 148
Loc: NSW, Australia
Have you tried to use VW architect without WinDoor? Have you tried to make a window look like an Australian window without Stegbar products etc.? Have you tried to make a combination unit door/window without WinDoor? What about Australian-styled handrails? Hard without the add-on. How good is the Heliodon tool? I reckon, in the Australian market, VW could buy and sell ArchiCad a few times over.

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#84285 - 08/18/07 09:57 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: dontevenjoke]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Ozcad add tools and content for the local market including but not limited to the following:
- WinDoor
- Handrail Tool
- Detailer Tool
- Heliodon Tool
- Steel Section Tool
- Custom Colour Tool
- Worksheet on Drawing Tool
- VAA Title Block Tool and Issue Command
- VAANZ Symbol Libraries (685 Mb of content)
- VAANZ Internal Libraries

There are sundry other tools included as well. These all make operating in our context easier. Yes you could operate without this added value - at a cost. To do so would be being penny wise and pound foolish.

The content is kept up to date with each new release and on top of this Ozcad provide very good support and after sales service.

If you want to run with DataCAD or Arriss or whatever without local content and tools and their support regimes go for it. Don't complain though about what you get, or more to the point don't get, for your dollar.


Edited by mike m oz (08/19/07 04:39 AM)

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#84286 - 08/18/07 10:11 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
jan15 Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: New Jersey
Mike, I think what Susan is trying to say is that she doesn't have any use for those extras in her particular practice, and that she should have the choice to buy only the part of VectorWorks that she wants, at a lower price than people who do want the whole package. Or, as she would probably say it, "Screw all that crap."

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#84288 - 08/18/07 10:18 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
dontevenjoke Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 148
Loc: NSW, Australia
Just a word on the service from Ozcad... Julian is an extremely patient, dedicated workaholic who answers enquiries even on the weekend. His answers are always spot on and he has an amazing knowledge on proriferal subjects as well. Try to get a similar standard from AutoCad and it will cost $10 a minute charged to your credit card.I reckon VW Australia is really good value, especially as I read the forum and watch non-Australians grapple with window and door problems, and other enquiries that I, as a novice have the answers to, thanks to the Australian package.In addition, there are 15 or 20 tutorials that come with various versions of VW that fully explain all the Aussie add-0ns.


Edited by dontevenjoke (08/19/07 02:56 AM)
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#84293 - 08/19/07 04:44 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
 Quote:
I think what Susan is trying to say is that she doesn't have any use for those extras in her particular practice...

If she doesn't I am intrigued about what sort of work she is doing. The added Australian content is almost totally for architecture and complements and enhances the capabilities of Architect. I find it hard to believe that it is of no value to anyone using Architect.

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#84295 - 08/19/07 06:48 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
Dieter @ DWorks Offline
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Belgium - Gent
 Originally Posted By: mike m oz
 Quote:
I think what Susan is trying to say is that she doesn't have any use for those extras in her particular practice...

If she doesn't I am intrigued about what sort of work she is doing. The added Australian content is almost totally for architecture and complements and enhances the capabilities of Architect. I find it hard to believe that it is of no value to anyone using Architect.


I must agree on this.
Maybe she'll have to consider to buy the pro version instead of the architect version?
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#84302 - 08/19/07 09:26 AM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: Dieter @ DWorks]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Perhaps Susan can provide us with more information on the work she does:
- Project type and size.
- Work type(s): design, design development, contract documentation.
- Work methodoogy: Modeling,drawing or somewhere in between.

Also explain how and why she doesn't need to use the added cpabilities, and therefore why they are of no value to her.

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#84425 - 08/21/07 11:15 AM Ripped Off ! [Re: mike m oz]
Susan Shaw Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 5
For the benefit of everyone mike m oz sent me this private message:


"For Fundamentals: US$995 = A$1255 so the price differential to $1851 is a touch under 48%.

For Architect: US$1395 = A$1760 so the price differential to $2895 is a touch under 65%. There is substantial added value in the Australian version of Architect which more than justifies the additional cost.

The costs have been the same for nearly two years. Back then the A$ was around 55 US cents. At that stage the differential was far less and at one stage the A$ dipped to 46 US cents. You do the maths.

I suggest you also have a look at the cost of the alternatives: AutoCAD Architect, Archicad, Revit and Microstation Architect. Make sure you find out all of the costs and factor in the costs where applicable for compulsory annual upgrades, annual subscription costs, compulsory dongle insurance and pay for support. Do the exercise properly and you will be staggered by the price. The cost of Architect Oz is far less than each of those options.
"

DO NOT private message me again "mike m oz". Anything you have to say on this issue say it in an open forum. Do you work for Ozcad ? You seem to know a lot about the exchange rates at different times and how they affected Ozcads buying price.

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#84432 - 08/21/07 12:52 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: mike m oz]
jan15 Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: New Jersey
Really, Mike! How could you? A private message? That's unforgivable. That poor, sweet, innocent girl.

And the terrible things you said to her - talking about 'price differential' and 'cost alternative.' And 'compulsory dongle insurance,' for God's sake! Oh, we know what that means, you pervert.

That nice boy Digby should give you a thrashing. The poor girl has already been raped and ripped off, and now this. She should report you to the police. You're as unrepentant as that Ozcad lady that she had to bawl out on the phone.

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#84433 - 08/21/07 01:47 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
Dieter @ DWorks Offline
Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 03/06/06
Posts: 2587
Loc: Belgium - Gent
Susan, You may be angry, but just try to see that mike is just helping you out.
I just don't see that you are angry after you bought the product, while you know the price before?
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#84434 - 08/21/07 01:50 PM Re: Vectorworks Price [Re: jan15]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Yeah - I'm a real bastard for wanting the facts to be correct. Pity Susan left out the header to the message: "It is not double the price."

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#84436 - 08/21/07 02:06 PM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: Susan Shaw]
P Retondo Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 1509
Loc: CA
Susan, I think Mike may have responded by a private message so that in attempting to correct the facts it wouldn't seem he was giving you a public rebuke. I've corresponded with Mike on occasion, and I can assure you he is an honorable person.
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#84443 - 08/21/07 03:13 PM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: P Retondo]
VectorGeek Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 190
Loc: Earth
What's sad about this is that both Julian and mike m oz are huge contributors to the VectorWorks community. That there is a difference in price between the USA and Australia (or anywhere for that matter) comes down to simple value.

Susan, you need to understand that this forum (and it's users of course) can either be your friend or foe. You've started off on the wrong foot, believing that you got ripped off and now alienating the very people who can help you get the value out of VectorWorks that you desire.

Although VW is making great strides in the worldwide CAD market, the community of users (particularly those who care enough to help others on this tech board) is still relatively small. You would do well to apologize and start fresh with some thoughtful insight or questions.

VG

...now back to the Petri thread...
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#84445 - 08/21/07 03:28 PM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: VectorGeek]
gScott Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 279
can we add susan to the petri thread?

she's showing potential with the snotty attitude!

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#84447 - 08/21/07 03:47 PM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: gScott]
jan15 Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: New Jersey
Good idea, Gideon. I can see a few points already where she resembles Petri, and also his progenitor Ignatius.

1. She promises to ignore people, 2. uses archaic formal language:
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
I shall ignore Nicholas forthwith.
3. the other person is always defective, 4. to an extreme degree:
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
The Ozcad lady was completely unrepentant
5. talks to herself:
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
Never mind Susan... live and learn.
6. with a dramatic flair:
 Originally Posted By: Susan Shaw
Maybe financially raped kinda sounds better than ripped off !

But no ethnic slurs. No insults against a whole class of people to counter a point made by one member of that class. She's made an excellent start in only 3 posts, but it doesn't seem right to put her in the same league with Petri until she's delivered at least one class-action insult.

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#84467 - 08/22/07 01:36 AM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: jan15]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
Snap. You obviously hit a nerve Susan.

I think you'll find 'mike m oz' is an OzCad recommended trainer. Real name Mike Moore, based in Perth. http://www.ozcad.com.au/support/tuition.html

Mikes figures are what intrigue me. It means that OzCad pockets any windfall above at least US$0.46c/AU$1.00 exchange rate. Considering the exchange rate has been as high as US$0.88/AU$1.00 of late this represents conciderable profit. Very enlightening.

You are one very bright feisty woman Susan. Well done.

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#84470 - 08/22/07 04:31 AM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: digby dart]
alanmac Offline
500 Club

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 692
Loc: UK
Dear Digby Dart and Susan Shaw

If you would care to step back from your suspicion and growing theory that this is some sort of conspiracy you’ll see that people on this forum are trying to help you. None of them, including myself have any vested interest in defending the Australian distributor, rather just pointing out the facts, which is relevant not only to Vectorworks but other businesses that deal on a global market.

In these terms whilst Vectorworks is widely known it does not have the market share of other software, and in countries around the world the potential owners of the software vary due to population etc.

Vectorworks is a product owned and developed by NNA (Nemetschek North America) so it’s bound to have a large presence their. Australia is different and they rely on distributors to cover the reduced market in not only that country but others.

They are also able to customise the product to be more suited to that market.

They are also in business, the same as you, to make money, nothing wrong in that, it’s what makes the world go round.

Would you not rather deal with somebody who knows your countries particular needs, variations and understands what you require from the software. Do you not want the capability to talk to a human being on a telephone, rather than by long winded emails, about a problem or requirement you have of the software? Someone who can guide you in real time through the situation?

This is a users forum, where fellow users of the software come to help each other. I know Mike Moore, from this forum, and if he has a fault, it’s spending far too much time helping fellow users, for free, with Vectorworks.

Surely as Architects the added items that have been included in your version are what you need to do your job, quicker and easier. (as in time is money)

Just take a look at what Adobe charges for its Creative Suite, downloadable in exactly the same version as the “American” version, in the UK. Yes it’s identical, it’s far bigger user base than Vectorworks but they still want over 30% more because it’s the UK.

Let me ask you a question. If when presenting your costs for a project to a client they reply they can get the same done for half or two thirds the price what is your response? How do you justify the prices that you charge?

Could it be localised knowledge, experience and level of service you offer?


Alan
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#84480 - 08/22/07 08:10 AM Re: Ripped Off ! [Re: alanmac]
gScott Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 279
jan15,

i think your point 6 goes beyond
mere 'dramatic flair'...

"..financially raped..." is pretty
@#$!#^& provocative in my book.

i think you should award her more
petri-points®

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#84502 - 08/22/07 01:16 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Dieter @ DWorks]
j.christ Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 101
Loc: Kerikeri, New Zealand
My suggestion would be to those thinking that you got ripped off is...did you research before purchasing? Was there an alternative package available & produced locally? Is the software produced locally have the same features available to the software that is potentialy going to ripped you off? Is the local product cost effective? Is it going to give you the return you so wish to have without spending more?

You don't go and buy a fridge to wash clothes, and complain that it does not have the enough features. You go out look at different models of washer and decide on features along with price. At he end of the day it's your choice, and you would have been advised on price. If you decide that you have been ripped off after the fact you have purchased is you misfortune.

I bought VW as it makes me feel good. Like buying a car. You relax behind the wheel of a car that is confortable and easy to drive.

Research better I say!


Edited by j.christ (08/22/07 01:27 PM)
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#84550 - 08/23/07 03:46 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
dontevenjoke Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/01/07
Posts: 148
Loc: NSW, Australia
Rape is involuntary actions forced upon you against your expressed will.
Anyone who forks out and then calls out rape is bordering on the moronic.
Susan, I think you had consensual purchase and a belated screaming 'RAPE' might be just a little dramatic.
I'd make the best of your evil situation and enjoy the product.
IF you're as passionate about design as your are angry about being raped I reckon you'll make up the dollars in no time.
Otherwise email your address and I'll snail mail you 50 cents and you can ring someone who cares.
It just won't be my number you'll be calling.
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#84568 - 08/23/07 09:44 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: dontevenjoke]
mralistair Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 01/30/07
Posts: 99
this is all getting a bit personal.

People should bear in mind that we often have limited ability to move CAD packages, the people who make the desicions in a company may be long gone and the effort of transfer is to much (plus if you are on a mac the choice is pretty limited) ..

if OzCAD add value then fair enough they should take an extra cut, but i fail to see why we are not be able to buy the US version for the US price.

if ozcad are sitting there with a pool of users who cannot move and are rachetting up the price, or not passing on savings then i think it's fair to say they are ripping the users off, price gouging or whatever you want to call it.
_________________________
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#84596 - 08/23/07 12:31 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: mralistair]
VectorGeek Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/14/07
Posts: 190
Loc: Earth
 Originally Posted By: mralistair
if OzCAD add value then fair enough they should take an extra cut, but i fail to see why we are not be able to buy the US version for the US price.


Come on.....do you honestly believe that OzCAD would spend the time and money to customize the product for the Aussie market if users could simply opt for the US version? If you ran a software business, would you agree to that arrangement?

VG
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#84645 - 08/23/07 05:57 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: VectorGeek]
Susan Shaw Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 5
Thank you for your kind words of support Digby.

Well it's not hard to see why the original post was "Anonymous". I seemed to have whipped up quite a fuss. I suspect vested interest has ruled the day for many of the OzCad vegimites.

I have good news. A number of US members of this forum have offered for me to upgrade through them in the USA. I am extremely grateful - THANKZ GUYZ. A 50% saving with the current exchange rate.

Have a wonderful day all.

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#84663 - 08/23/07 08:31 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
alanmac Offline
500 Club

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 692
Loc: UK
"I seemed to have whipped up quite a fuss."

Hardly. It's your unjustified description of somebody that sparked the comments, not the content of your compliant.


I note no response from you to my question - If when presenting your costs for a project to a client they reply they can get the same done for half or two thirds the price what is your response? How do you justify the prices that you charge?

"A number of US members of this forum have offered for me to upgrade through them in the USA."

That's going to be good. So it will be registered to them at their office address now then.

As you already own a recent copy why do you need to "upgrade"?

Also to upgrade you'll need your registration number, which as you purchased in Australia will be linked to there.

If you get past those technicalities I hope you can wait for discs to go from NNA to them, then to you. Hope it doesn't get lost in the post over to you as it's going to be a bit difficult to explain why you need another one.

Do hope you can go to them for technical support because you've blown it for anywhere else. Hope you don't have too many problems. I imagine emails back and forth to solve issues will soon take the shine of their generosity.

I guess you are going to do without any of the additional items used for the Australian market when it comes to your architectural practise.

Also going to be interesting if you need to work in collaboration with other Australian architects who own the Australian version, because I would image you'll not be able to exchange files easily.



Good luck.









Edited by alanmac (08/23/07 08:44 PM)
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#84666 - 08/23/07 09:37 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: alanmac]
alanmac Offline
500 Club

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 692
Loc: UK
Just to put it into context.

I don't use Architect but the basic version.

I checked pricing on NNA's site.
Cost is $995.00 which equates to £496.41p at current exchange rates.

Pricing on Vectorworks UK site.
£689.00

That's a difference of £192.59, which is coming close to half as expensive again.

What do we get different to the US version - a dongle we must plug in to make the program run.

I'm sure it's the same situation for all flavours.

I'm not complaining, making a fuss, but it does make your Ozcad is ripping us off seem unjustified in the scheme of things does it not.
_________________________
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#84667 - 08/23/07 10:05 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: alanmac]
digby dart Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/05/07
Posts: 7
That was a very sad and embittered post alanmac. Almost spiteful. I found your obvious delight in the potential difficulties Susan may have upgrading though the USA unfortunate.

I too seem to have attracted attention from OzCad's 'mike m oz' with a private message scurrilously claiming that Allplan 500 is in excess of AU$10,000.00 (really AU$6050) and Allplan 300 in excess of AU$7500.00 (really AU$4350). He also informs me that to get the same functionality as Vectorworks Architect one would need to spend in excess of AU$13,000 on Allplan. I find these claims to be blatantly untrue and extremely misleading.

This was followed by OzCad's 'mike m oz' making some unpleasant inference about the Australian distributor of Archicad.

Good luck with your upgrade Susan.

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#84668 - 08/23/07 10:33 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: digby dart]
alanmac Offline
500 Club

Registered: 12/28/03
Posts: 692
Loc: UK
"That was a very sad and embittered post alanmac. Almost spiteful. I found your obvious delight in the potential difficulties Susan may have upgrading though the USA unfortunate."

You've got a strange way of looking at things. Merely pointing out the reality of the situation.

Sure I'll admit there was a degree of cynicism in my tone, but hey you folks started with the "ripped off" comments, if you want to talk bitter, and started to attack (and continue to do so) somebody who I've found to be most helpful to me and others in the use of VW, without any personal gain from doing so what so ever.

What's better - I told you so when it all goes pear shaped or pointing out the potential pitfalls.

Both Ozcad and Mike Moore have a proven record in helping many users on this forum and beyond with Vectorworks so I doubt if you'll have any effect with what I'm getting to feel is a hidden agenda going on with you and Ms Shaw.

Anyway, I'm out of here. Your types come and go on forums like this. Add very little in the way of positive contributions, if any at all, and after becoming wise to them other users ignore their posts, you go away and find somewhere else to play silly games.
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#84669 - 08/23/07 11:04 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: digby dart]
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Below is the PM I sent to digby - I will let others judge the veracity of digby's claims in respect of it:

 Quote:
Allplan Prices

Digby - you are way off with your implied Allplan prices - the prices on the price list from the Australian reseller are in Euros not A$.

Excluding GST the Australian dollar prices (excluding GST) at today's exchange rate (1 Euro = 1.68305 AUD) are:
- AllPlan 300 Architectural = A$7,523
- Allplan 500 Architectural = A$10,350

To get the DTM, Site Plan and Landscaping capabilities you would need to go for Allplan Architectural 700 at A$13,178

Last time I checked Archicad was around A$6000 - 6,500 excluding GST. It is difficult to know the exact price because the distributor won't list them publicly. I wonder why the reluctance?


Note: The Allplan prices are from the price list supplied to me by the Australian distributor on the 22nd August 07. In the top left hand corner it quite clearly states that all prices are in Euros and that the prices are per license. The prices are as follows:
- Allplan 300 Architecture 4,470 Euros
- Allplan 500 Architecture 6,150 Euros
- Allplan 700 Architecture 7,830 Euros

To convert these prices to Australian dollars is fairly simple maths - multiply them by the current exchange rate. At this very moment 1.00 EUR = 1.64982 AUD
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi

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#84672 - 08/24/07 04:48 AM Re: I got ripped off [Re: mike m oz]
Susan Shaw Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 08/16/07
Posts: 5
Thanks Digby. Hope to catch you around. I have pm'd you. \:\)

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#84709 - 08/24/07 02:16 PM Re: I got ripped off [Re: Susan Shaw]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I am officially closing and locking this dicussion.

This message board is for technical and workflow-based questions while using VectorWorks.

If you have questions or concerns with pricing, please take those questions and concerns up with your distributor (if outside of the USA) or with your local sales rep (if in the USA).

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