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#47915 - 12/11/04 06:53 AM Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
So how do you do it?
The user guide on 5-28 sys to select Edit from the Resources menu.........but there is no Edit on the Resources menu.
I am trying to change the 913mm square shower symbol to a 1200mm square shower and there is no way of doing it and other symbols! [Mad]

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#47916 - 12/11/04 10:36 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Travis Offline
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Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 796
Loc: Wasatch—Teton Mtns, (ID, MT, U...
MW,

You must first insert the symbol in your drawing. Then select the drawing as the active resource file (the upper pull-down in the resource pallet). Now highlight the symbol and you'll find Edit available on the Resources menu.

It seems one must have the resource file itself open to be able to edit a symbol. Not a bad safety net.

Good luck,

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#47917 - 12/13/04 10:54 AM Re: Editing Symbols
jan15 Offline
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Registered: 12/27/01
Posts: 1266
Loc: New Jersey
It used to be that you could just double-click on any instance of a symbol to start editing it, and an "Exit" button would appear at the upper right for ending the edit session. Was that left out of version 11?

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#47918 - 12/13/04 01:19 PM Re: Editing Symbols
Jonathan Pickup Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 09/21/01
Posts: 2900
Loc: Napier, New Zealand
no, it wasn't left out, you can still edit symbols in this way. If fact you can edit most things by double clciling on them...

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#47919 - 12/14/04 04:55 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
Well Jonathan if that is true why is it not allowing me to change the symbol dimensions when I double click on it?

For example, please explain how you can change the 913x913mm shower symbol to a 1200x1200mm shower by double clicking on it?

The info comes up but you can not change the width or depth.

I will try Travis 's way but it sounds complicated for a simple task........which I am beginning to think VW 11 is getting more so!

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#47920 - 12/14/04 09:24 AM Re: Editing Symbols
CipesDesign Offline

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Registered: 11/07/00
Posts: 4496
Loc: Ashland, Or USA
Hi MW. Here's a little clarification (I hope!): If you are working with items from the resource browser (like a shower for example) you should know that only the ones in RED are editable and that you edit them through the object info palette. Hope that helps :-)

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#47921 - 12/14/04 02:59 PM Re: Editing Symbols
Travis Offline
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Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 796
Loc: Wasatch—Teton Mtns, (ID, MT, U...
MW,

I think you're getting advice on several different points. I'll try to synthesize them here.

1) Many items in the VW object libraries are Plug-In Objects (commonly called PIOs) that come with some of their attributes editable from the Object Info Pallet (the OIP). I believe this is what Peter refers to.

2) Some items in the VW object libraries, and anything one might create from the Organize - Create Symbol action, are Symbols. Meaning they don't have attributes editable from the OIP. They can be edited only by double-clicking on them after they've been inserted in the drawing or via the Resources menu as I described above.

3) You can always Ungroup a PIO, edit it however you like using 2D and 3D tools, and then "reassemble" it into a Symbol . . . or a new PIO if you care to learn VW programming ins and outs. But, like you alluded to, this is a lot of work especially for an infrequently used item.

Each of the above only apply after the item has been inserted in the drawing. You'll not have much luck trying to edit items directly from the Resources pallet that don't reside on an open drawing.

To further muddy the issue, I find the shower PIO to be fully editable from the OIP both with respect to baseline dimension and height. I can further edit lip height, shape (corner, Dee, round, arc, etc), and so on. Are you using Architect?

(At least I got to have fun with lots of acronymns!)

Good luck.

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#47922 - 12/15/04 03:57 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
A lot to check out here.....and thanks for your help.

Briefly there are not many symbols in red and so not many symbols are editable!

I have not got Architect just VW11.

The user manuel still says that all symbols are editable!

I will check it out further but if only the red symbols are editable then I have not got much choice and the user manuel is incorrect.....again!

[Confused]

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#47923 - 12/15/04 06:56 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Anonymous
Unregistered


You can edit ANY symbol you have IMPORTED into your working document.

You can't edit the symbols in the symbol library files UNLESS you OPEN that file and edit it that file.

To edit a symbol you've imported into your file, select the file from the top drop down box in the Resource Browser.
In the large white area below that, right click or control click on the symbol and select EDIT.
You can then edit the 2d and or 3d components.
This is explained in the User's Guide correctly.

As a side note, you may want to look into one of the training resources available such as books, and/or training CDs. These types of things are explained in detail in all the training materials. You can contact your distributor in the UK for more information.

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#47924 - 12/16/04 04:55 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
No you can not!

I have dragged and dropped the shower symbol into the drawing.

I right click on it to edit and the 913x913mm dim. remains brown and will not allow change / revision.

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#47925 - 12/16/04 10:39 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you righth click on the shower and select edit - do you get a dialog box asking you if you want to edit the 2d or 3d portion of the symbol?

If you do, what are you selecting?

After you get into the edit symbol screen - you should only see the one item - select it and go to the OIP. At the top in bold black letters it will either say Shower, Group, or something like that. Tell me what it says.

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#47926 - 12/17/04 01:46 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
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Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
No I do not get edit 2d or 3d.

I go into the symbol. If I select edit again it says:

'The selected object has no edit behaviour'

If I select properties, the properties for Bath - Shower come up which can not be edited.

If I have the Object Info Pallete open then Object Info - Shape comes up when I select Edit by rifght clicking - but the Object Info is not editable.

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#47927 - 12/17/04 03:59 PM Re: Editing Symbols
Andrew Bell@NV Offline
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Journeyman

Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 486
Loc: Columbia, MD, USA
I think I see the problem.

I believe the bath-shower object is a VW Architect object. Note that it is not a symbol, but a plug-in. Plug-ins are not directly editable, they are changed by modifying their parameters. If you read a VW file that came from an industry package, such as Architect, you'll see industry objects like the bath; however, you will not have the code needed to edit those industry objects if you do not have that industry package or the Industry Collection.

This is because the plug-ins actually have programs associated with them that generate the object components based on the parameters. If you don't have that object's program, VW has no way to generate the new components for a given set of parameters. However, the components are stored in the file, and thus can be read in by other VW packages.

[ 12-17-2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Andrew Bell@NNA ]

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#47928 - 12/18/04 02:22 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
500 Club

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
Thanks for your help.

It looks like VW11 comes with no editable symbols but just plug in objects.

So I was right, I can not edit any of the symbols / objects............and that is a great help!

[Mad]

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#47929 - 12/18/04 03:21 AM Re: Editing Symbols
propstuff Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
quote:
Originally posted by michael john williams:
Thanks for your help.

It looks like VW11 comes with no editable symbols but just plug in objects.

So I was right, I can not edit any of the symbols / objects............and that is a great help!


Well, no, actually; wrong. ;-)
If you place a PIO, and choose Organise>Create Symbol it will "dismantle" the PIO editability and leave you with a conventional symbol with conventional symbol editability.

cheers,
N

oops, forgot to add: when you create the symbol it will disappear from you Drg unless you tick the "Leave Instance In Place" box, however it will appear in the resource browser for that file in the symbol section

[ 12-18-2004, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: propstuff ]

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#47930 - 12/18/04 08:31 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Anonymous
Unregistered


The plugins are editable directly in the Object Info Palette. You can change all the parameters right from in there.

OR, you can do as propstuff says and ungroup it - and then get the original objects which can be edited the old fashioned way.

You may want to look into getting one of the training CDs or training manuals that we have available. It will help with the learning curve significantly.

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#47931 - 12/18/04 05:05 PM Re: Editing Symbols
propstuff Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
Katie,
That object (from the Architect Samper in the Standard workspace) is not a PIO. It's a hybrid symbol with no edit fields. However, if you go in to edit it, it lists in the OIP as a Bath/Shower and has edit fields like a PIO, but after the Rotation field they are all greyed out. Hence Michael's frustration.

Perhaps this is done by NNA to encourage people to buy Architect, perhaps as Andrew said it's just an inevitable consequence of not having the Architect code activated, perhaps it's a bug.

If I ungroup the symbol instance with Cmd-K in 2D mode I get only the 2D version of the symbol, if in 3D I get only the 3D part.

So, Michael:
Place an instance of the symbol,
Go into edit mode,
Go Organise> Convert to group (Cmd-K)
You will then have a Group which can be resized.
Exit the Symbol.

Note; if you want to retain the Hybrid behaviour of the symbol you will have to follow the procedeure for making a hybrid symbol (see manual). In this case the 3D version of the symbol is just a simple extrude, so no big deal.
If you wanted to retain the 3D part of a more complex symbol you could do the Cmd-K on 2 instances of the Symbol; one in Top/Plan to get the 2D part and one in Top view to get the 3D part, and copy/paste them into one Symbol.

HTH,
N.

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#47932 - 12/20/04 06:02 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
500 Club

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
Ahhhhhhhh...at last we are getting to the bottom of this........Nemetschek want me to buy more products or Architect to get over something which is wrongly or ineffectually explained in the Vectorworks 11 User Manuel!

It seems this happens a lot in VW11.

As it is Christmas perhaps Nemetschek should change its name to Scrooge!

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#47933 - 12/20/04 03:15 PM Re: Editing Symbols
propstuff Offline
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Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
3 things;
1/ NNA's manuals do suffer from missing, or poorly explained information, however, their Tech Support (including this forum, where numerous people have spent their time to help you) is generally excellent, as is (generally) their responsiveness to feature requests. Furthermore; they are no worse than the vast majority of Software manuals which are, by and large, awful. Hence the large market in 3rd party manuals.
It seems to be a law of the universe that software vendors have difficulty explaining how their own products work. ;-)

2/ Encourageing customers to "Supersize" is a perfectly normal business practice whether you are buying an airline ticket, shiney wheels for your car, or a McNasty burger. IN VW8 we had everything in one package and that was one of the reasons I bought it and I was pissed when that changed, but why should NNA be denied this conventional marketing strategy?

3/ Merry Christmas to you too

[ 12-21-2004, 01:10 AM: Message edited by: propstuff ]

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#47934 - 12/21/04 10:59 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Travis Offline
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Registered: 08/25/01
Posts: 796
Loc: Wasatch—Teton Mtns, (ID, MT, U...
Thanks, Nicholas. You're comments are far more tactful, and insightful, than my thoughts have been. I might just recycle an old cliché for Michael's benefit (or perhaps just my own): You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

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#47935 - 12/22/04 09:53 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
500 Club

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
Sorry for being tactless but I was purposly so as I am generally frustrated with wasting time reading poor manuels and following incorrect tech support from Nemetschek.Ofcourse if it is no worst then their competitors then I suppose it should be accepted.As an architect running my own business such poor service would be totally unacceptable. Note that Nemetschek have gone quiet on this and have not responded for several days - now thats what I call excellent response!

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#47936 - 12/22/04 11:59 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm sorry, but I have to chime in here.
You purchased the product from the distributor in the UK, Computers Unlimited. Per the license agreement, your technical support is supplied by your distributor, not Nemetschek.
The time I tried to help you, we failed to gain ground because I was not getting a full explaination of the problem from you. Without that, I couldn't go further. Now that I understand your issue, per Nicholas' help, I can continue to troubleshoot. I stopped however because I didn't feel I deserved the type of language being used when all I was trying to do was to help you. Behind the text, I'm still a human. I'm still here to help. I am not here to be called unacceptable names, or to all you to use the company name in slander while trying to HELP.
You really do need to contact your local distributor for the technical inquires. In addition, I think if you obtained the training CDs, most of your "issues" with the program will be reseolved. Many of your questions are related to proper useage of the program.

Please keep in mind this is a message board, not a primary method of tech support. While I do discuss issues here, this is not my, nor the any of the distributors primary responsibility. I have plenty of phone calls, emails, faxes, and inquires from international distributors to take care of. I'm here as a courtesy and to ensure foul and inappropriate language is not used.

[ 12-22-2004, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: Katie ]

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#47937 - 12/22/04 04:22 PM Re: Editing Symbols
Andrew Bell@NV Offline
Moderator
Journeyman

Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 486
Loc: Columbia, MD, USA
MJW, you might also consider this. If you bought something from a store and had an issue with it, would you talk to an employee or would you post a note on the bulletin board they had at the front of the store? Apparently you would choose the latter. If the response you got from the bulletin board was not consistent (some of it coming from people who didn't work at that store) and reflected some confusion over what exact product and situation you had, would you then go talk to an employee, or would you insult the company on the bulletin board? After posting said insult, would you then post a snide message about how the company still wasn't being helpful?

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#47938 - 12/23/04 02:36 AM Re: Editing Symbols
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
MJW A couple of points.

1. The NNA manuals are far from useless. They are well setout and explain stuff in plain English. In my experience many other CAD programs manuals are no where near as good.

2. NNA provide free technical support for 18 months after purchase. Other programs do not offer anything like this level of free support. With AutoCAD for example you will have to pay each and every time you contact their support people.

3. There is also no other CAD program that I am aware of that has a public techboard like this one. NNA are very receptive to feedback and often technical queries are answered by either them or the contributor's to the technical board.

I have provided VW support and training for many years, and my experience is that for many users it is easier to ring or email than to bother looking for the answer either in the manuals or the on-line help. I've even had people state that "They don't do manuals", or similar. For me this is sheer stupidity - RTFM has a lot going for it and can reduce frustration levels substantially. Try it for a change - you might be surprised at how easy it is to find the answer to your queries or problems.

Katie is dead right when she says there is no substitute for training. Invest in some - whether it be formal lessons, the NNA training CD's, the ArchonCAD training manuals, the OzCAD multimedia CD, the third party books etc. Gaining an understanding of the concepts of the program is critical to becoming proficient. Training will help you do this.

If you also develop an an attitude of learning as much about the program as possible, and adopt a mindset of solving your own problems, you will get much more joy out of your work.

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#47939 - 12/23/04 04:36 AM Re: Editing Symbols
michael john williams Offline
500 Club

Registered: 11/03/04
Posts: 715
Loc: Bath, Somerset, UK
Some points for clarfication:

1. I have used VW for a number of years and so basic training is not necessary.
2. Although Nemetschek are promoting certified courses I have not found any in my locality.
3. Advice given by Nemetschek such as -

The plugins are editable directly in the Object Info Palette. You can change all the parameters right from in there.

Is simply incorrect and so you should appreciate my frustration. Advice is only good if it is correct.It was a simple technical question which does not warrent extensive training.
4. Dell and Microsoft offer free and good public technical support.
5. I am sorry you took my comments as personal insult as that was not the intention.

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#47940 - 12/23/04 10:15 AM Re: Editing Symbols
Andrew Bell@NV Offline
Moderator
Journeyman

Registered: 04/25/01
Posts: 486
Loc: Columbia, MD, USA
quote:
Originally posted by michael john williams:

3. Advice given by Nemetschek such as -

The plugins are editable directly in the Object Info Palette. You can change all the parameters right from in there.

Is simply incorrect and so you should appreciate my frustration.

I can understand your frustration, but that is normally a correct answer regarding plug-ins. The special issue in your case seems to be that your VW package provides sample plug-in objects to give you a taste of the features that come in VW Architect (yes, to encourage you to consider upgrading), but without giving you the ability to edit those sampler objects as is possible if you have the full package. (Note that this is a guess. It could be, instead, that there is a problem with your installation that prevents editing. Contact your distributor to verify.) You should still be able to modify the components of the plug-in by ungrouping it and modifying the individual pieces.

You also might want to note that you have asked your question in the section of the tech board whose purpose is to solicit suggestions for tech notes and how-tos, not to answer general or architectural questions.

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#47941 - 12/24/04 10:12 AM Re: Editing Symbols
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
MJW

Don't dismiss training so lightly. The program is constantly evolving so the need for training is continuous, whether it be self training or formal training. There is a continuing need to come to grips with new features and ways of doing things as they are added.

Even though I have been using the program for 11.5 years I wouldn't pretend to know everything. I have learnt from the other sources I have mentioned, and expect to continue to do so.

Think of training as an investment which will enhance your capability and make you more productive. It may also help to diminish your obvious frustrations.

Contact your UK distributor and ask them what training is available and who does it where. In a brief search of the internet I found some UK training resources.

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#47942 - 12/30/04 07:44 AM Re: Editing Symbols
mike m oz Offline

Vectorworks Addict

Registered: 01/17/02
Posts: 3766
Loc: Australia
Michael

Have a look at the post on training under General discussion - "Best way to learn".

http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=004046

I can highly recommend the ArchonCAD training manuals by Jonathon Pickup. They are worth the money and will pay for themself quickly through increased productivity.

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#47943 - 05/03/05 08:25 AM Re: Editing Symbols
dglh1 Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Scotland
WHOA!Can I ask something? Do I understand Andrew Bell to say that, if I get architect I get a whole new "editability" of PIOs and symbols? This would be great because, right now I'm trying to create a window object with tapered sides I can plug into walls. Like Michael, I can't seem to get it by editing the existing window symbol, or by creating a symbol from something I've drawn. Well, actually more correctky, I can create the symbol fine, but it wont plug in and trim nice and neatly like the one in the resources does. What am I missing? Ability with Scipt? Architect?

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#47944 - 05/03/05 05:07 PM Re: Editing Symbols
propstuff Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
you get more editability of some and others that you didn't have before, and various commands etc etc. (and the Sketch ability)

I don't think that extends to tapered windows though(??)

However, if you make your own windows, and set the Create Symbol>Options and Insertion Point boxes, it should cut your walls properly. (and can be moved in the wall by the 3D edit tool)

HTH
N

[ 05-03-2005, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: propstuff ]

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#47945 - 05/03/05 06:10 PM Re: Editing Symbols
Delmer Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/11/05
Posts: 468
Check Robert Anderson's reply here:
http://techboard.nemetschek.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=001461

[ 05-03-2005, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Delmer ]

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#47946 - 05/04/05 06:30 AM Re: Editing Symbols
dglh1 Offline
Greenhorn

Registered: 04/06/05
Posts: 5
Loc: Scotland
OK thanks, going to try it. For all you expert users out there, note Tech@Nemetschek's reply to this question, and I quote.... "Unfortunately, creating a tapered reveal for a window symbol is beyond the scope of Technical Support". Oh....er.....ok. So if anybody has ever succeeded in doing this, and I KNOW you're out there somewhere, give yourself a pat on the back! Any chance somebody could email me an example so I can just import it? Pretty please?
Dave Hammond

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#47947 - 05/04/05 06:45 PM Re: Editing Symbols
propstuff Offline
1000 Club

Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 1162
Loc: Australia
dghl,
Sorry, I thought you meant tapered in elevation, not splayed, however,
you will have to make your own symbol (a Multiple Extrude or Tapered Extrude is a good start to make the splay).
Now the good bit! ;-)
Symbols will work in solids Modeling, so all you have to do is place the symbol, and, as long as the splay is thicker than the wall, you can do a Solid Subtraction which will cut the splayed hole,
then insert another symbol in the hole.

hth,
N.

note: I havent tried this on a machine with renderworks, so I'm not sure what it'll do to the rendering of the reveal and each side of the wall..........

D'OH!!
I just realised that after subtracting a solid from a Wall it ceases to be a Wall. Damn.

[ 05-04-2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: propstuff ]

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